Keep doing what your doing. I have been known to use stay brite on occasion when the joints were already soft soldered. but in general brazing with nitro is the way to go. i think oxy is overkill

 

I have used a turbo torch for over five years...for brazing, not soldering. No problems whatsoever.

Upgrade to bigger tips for the turbo torch.

[Edited by square2round on 05-28-2005 at 09:50 AM]

 

whats wrong with using MAPP gas and a turbo torch? you havnt had to lug your bottles up to many floors , have you?

 

Stick to the oxy/acc setup it is faster than the Turbo torch. I have a setup they call an "aircraft torch" it uses the small MAPP gas bottle and a refillable oxygen tank. It works great. I can even use it for cutting if I need to.

 

The biggest problem I have is the flux. Soft solder can be a strong joint too but the acid scares me.

 

At a school I just went to a few weeks ago they talked about this. The strength of a solder joint vs a brazed joint was the same, but the burst strength of a brazed joint was almost half of what a soldered one was.

The company I worked for used staybrite, the one I'm working for now only brazes. Personally I kinda liked soldering, it was easy to carry a soldering box that had everything you needed to make connections vs dragging torches around.

Personally I think they can both work in the proper application long as they are done right.

Just curious... Does anyone use a b-bottle setup to do brazing? Don't recall how hot a system like that gets.

 

we have done nothing but braze for 35 yrs, used to lug around ac/ox rig but gave it up for turbo torches at least 20 yrs ago. been brazing so long i suck at soft soldering around the house.

 

I always braze but I would say theres nothing wrong with soldered joints if done right. From what ive seen most of those leaks on solderd stuff is just crappy work. Cut those leaking fittings appart, bet it wasnt cleaned very good and has big spots with no solder. Just clean the damn pipe,fittings,and take easy with the flux!

 

as far as i am concerned a tech should be able to do buth braze and solder
these guys that just solder the lines will have a problem if they wind up with a co that only brazes or if thay ever have to replace a compressor
stay-brite is great but brazing is part of the trade and we all shoild be able to braze

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

i was told you have to braze not solder on the 410a systems, and this was from a manufacture of hvac equipment. and yes i agree that a service tech should be able to solder and braze.

 

dont forget - a major benefit of brazing is in the
localizing of heat. more concentrated hotter flame
makes for less heat transmitted to sensitive components.
and . . how you gonna join copper and steel?

 

how you gonna join copper and steel?

You can refer to this chart...

http://www.jwharris.com/jwref/chart/

"Copper or brass to steel or stainless"

 

to square2round,

Thanks for the reference chart link. To be honest I have done a ton of soldering with copper and brass. Both for plumbing and boiler heat. For Refer, the only residential and lite-com applications I have ever encountered were copper, brass and some aluminum. 99% of this work was with oxy-acet. And the work always turned out great so far. I don't see myself ever have to work with steel or stainless. Believe it or not I'm in good shape and don't mind the exercise of toting the torch kit and nitro tank. Same with the Micron gage and changing vac pump oil religiously. Too many of my co-workers cut these steps short. Have gotten into a safe and patient routine.

 

No problem. It was referred to me on here not long ago. Very useful information throughout the whole site.

My boss and I refer to your signature constantly. Where's the next installment...Naked Gun 4 ¼.

I think that's where it's from.

[Edited by square2round on 05-30-2005 at 01:42 PM]

 

how you gonna join copper and steel?

had an hvac instructor tell me to use epoxy

 

The biggest problem I have is the flux. Soft solder can be a strong joint too but the acid scares me.

The acid is a valid concern. But personally I'd rather have that than the ash. Nitrogen helps. But I've seen ash form on the inside of lines even when nitrogen was being purged. Given the proclivities of most installers, I'd rather the filter/drier have to deal with a little acid than the metering device have to deal with a lot of ash.

Of course StayBrite 8 works best only on clean tight fittings. Anyone so locked into one method that they exclude another is short sighted. I use either one depending on the application.

 

I am the only guy at our company that uses oxy/acet to braze. And always use nitrogen. Everyone else thinks I'm the oddman (oddball) out. They have blind faith that soldering is just as good. I'm used to tubing benders to avoid fittings, in fact never used them on new installs. Many of my service calls are our "call-backs" and find LOTS of soldered fittings; poorly operating systems and more leaks than I could have ever expected. Not to sound tacky, but my old HVAC instructor would say "solder is for plumbers", it has its place but not in refrigeration. Every employee has a turbotorch. I refuse to solder refrig systems. The shame is our company sells TOP-OF-THE-LINE equipment. When it works poorly or fails, they simply blame the manufacturer. Please give me your comments.....I don't want to think their practices are the norm.

Don't change! I do the same as you and have replaced several soldered joints too. A turbo torch is O.K. but is slower up on a tall roof it is easier on the back though.

 

I work with a oxy/acet set up that way I can regulate the heat needed for the most part but when I go into an attic I take my mapp turbo torch.

When I run line sets I use just heat to melt copper first pinch vapor line off and weld tight the seam with no filler then add pressure and pinch off and weld tight and check with soap.

Outdoor units I use a oxy/acet setup cant beat the heat and time it takes I also use a cold wet rag no paste.

 

Don't change!

Famous last words? Those who give bittan the deer in the headlights look are no less myopic than those who can't see the value of refrigeration grade solder. Both have valid uses. Both will outperform the other depending on the application.

 

Don't change!

Famous last words? Those who give bittan the deer in the headlights look are no less myopic than those who can't see the value of refrigeration grade solder. Both have valid uses. Both will outperform the other depending on the application.

You are right.

Solder will out leak sil-phos any day.

 

Solder may. StayBrite 8 won't. I know it's confusing. But corporations invest big money into research and development. We've had all sorts of new fangled technology pop up since the Kelvinator. One of them is StayBrite 8. So put down the halide torch, hop into the Studebaker and head on down to the general store and pick some up. I think you'll like it.

 

most of the brazing i do is with sil-flos 15

of course, i got my start with solder...like a bike, can't forget how to do it, and it'll burn the hell out of ya...

oh wait, that's not a bike.

 

Health Risk

Unfortunately brazing exposes one to an extremely toxic agent (cadmium), which is a component of brazing flux. There is no way around this, therefore please be certain to work in a highly ventilated area. Avoid brazing in confined space that allows the buildup of this airborne agent. OSHA states that Primary control should focus on inhalation… Below is an excerpt from their cautions on Cadmium.

“The most serious consequence of chronic cadmium poisoning is cancer (lung and prostate). The first observed chronic effect is generally kidney damage, manifested by excretion of excessive (low molecular weight) protein in the urine. Cadmium also is believed to cause pulmonary emphysema and bone disease (osteomalcia and osteoporosis).”

For more information please visit: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/cadmium/

Please do not disregard this cautionary information, the danger is real and those who braze are directly in harms way.

Take care, Faith, hope and charity…

 

To Faith and others-

Appreciate the info on possible health risks. I've got to think we all are aware of them. Soldering, brazing, etc. I also agree with the other guys that using the correct solder, flux and prep is OK. Unfortunately I have seen monkeys use wrong solder on potable water lines. Some guys don't care. Everytime I get feedback from this site it makes me think. Then I research some more. Most of the threads I read here have been helpful and accurate. Unlike at work, where I'm surrounded by too many close-minded loudmouths; they criticize what they are unfamiliar with.