Found this:

http://www.sabatinoday.com/clients/ECT/ultraTechDemo/UltraTechSystemDemo_Generic.html

Anybody with a little hands on experience work on this or seen it before?

 

Found out RUUD is using it in their ultra series units:

http://www.ruudac.com/products/ProductInfo.aspx?XSL_File=ruudac_product_ccs.xsl

And Trane as well:

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/Communicating-Systems


Anyone work on these systems?

 

Why now would you want some potentially proprietary control language?

 

I'm not interested in the language per se, I'm interested in if this is a sound platform to build a unit on. Having worked on over engineered Carrier systems that require the threat of a firebomb in their offices to get coherent tech support, or seeing motors rated for 134.8 RPM that you can't get from anywhere but a small province in cambodia, I was wanting the inside scoop on how well the new technology works, and if it is easy to use and service. Exactly how they talk is not my interest so much.

I may have this thing in the wrong forum, it seemed a controls related item.

PS how you doin'? long time no read.

 

The reason I bring it up is that if it's some self-guided single company attempt at a communication protocol you do end up getting familiar with Cambodian tech support.

Otherwise, it's what we call a standard and their are many ways to support it. That's why I ask. If I were a HVAC contractor that's what I'd be asking these guys.

Typically what you get is some engineering design team that wants to reinvent the communication wheel. They end up running into issues, stumble into Modbus and try to get that to work. Really, they aren't much different than DIYer's, when what they should do is select an established platform and supply product based on that with help from professional OEM providers that do this sort of thing daily.

 

From what I understand it is an RJ45 platform that has been modified to allow for the average technician to wire it wrong several times before he he reads the manual and hooks it up right (it won't blow the internal workings)

I am worried about the reinventing the wheel scenario, and investing in something I cant find english language literature on later.

It seems helpfull that the thing is put out by reputable players like Emerson Ruud and Trane, but then again, Carrier is reputable, but it does not make their equipment any less complicated.

That is why I am looking for anyone who has worked on it or heard about it.

I heard from one guy on another forum that has installed a Ruud unit or two with this in it, and loved it.

Not that I ever go to other forums besides H-talk of course.

 

Open protocol

ClimateTalk is not proprietary, it is open. And it now has a wikipedia page. It is not RJ45, It is 2-4 wires regardless of how many stages or sensors you have, wired as systems used to be wired (standard 18 awg thermostat wire) from thermostat to indoor to outdoor.

Please feel free to ask questions. If they are what I can answer, I will.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/ClimateTalk

 

Weird, I haven't heard anything about this in the Emerson Network Power / Liebert branch.

Left hand isn't talking to the right in Emerson big picture here, which may mean it is destined to stay in the residential sector?

 

I still think that having to pay for something, and even more - become a member and what not. It voids the very essence of "open". Comparing to another open protocol such as Modicons Modbus, the difference in approach is definately there.

 

as against zigbee?

which costs $3500 annual membership before once can develop products using their specifications?

Please do not confuse this with "selling" a license to use the protocol.

Proprietary means you cannot see or use the specs outside who the developer wants to let see. Open means anyone (regardless of competitive positioning) can become a member, develop products, drive direction, and promote.

 

I was at the meeting where they handed off the 'protocol' to that third party to develop it. I spent a breif time with a manufacturer and we were exploring using the protocol on a circuit board for a new product I was developing.
THe SUPER condensed version of events is that I called Emerson looking for a circuit board that utilized climate talk
- you need to sign this confidetiality waver
- confidentiality so I don't tell people about what? I just want to know if you have a board
- you must sign
- Ok - happy now? so about that board....
- we have a very flexible protocol, it can do whatever you want
- That's great, I guess, but there is no info online, and what you sent me after I signed the waiver tells me that it 'shall do' this and that like an ingeneer's spec. An engineer's spec is a far cry from a usable working piece of equipment. do you have any circuit boards you can show me?
- what do you want it to do?
- I want it to run my heatpump, I told you already...
- we need a list of inputs and outputs, their ranges, conditions the system will be operating under, a fan configuration program....
- Uh, so that woud mean you don't have any circuit boards?
- Come t this meeting at the AHR Expo in Cicago, we can explain there.
- Well ok, I'll be there anyhow.

The meeting was a cheerleading session for the press about how this will revolutionize the industry. EXTREMELYshort on specifics. VERY VERY vague.
- So about that circuit board, I contacted you 3 months ago, and I still don't have anything resembling a piece of hardware in my hands, maybe ther is another someone I should be talking to there at Emerson.
- We are the ones in charge of the climate talk protocol
- Could you at least tell me if there are ANY systems running this protocol yet? (I know there are at least 2)
- Of course!! No fewer than 10 major manufacturer's have signed on, but I can't tell you their names, it's confidential.
- GEEZ! did you take classes in how not to answer questions?! I need a circuit board!!! Does one physically exist?
- We need a list of outputs .....

So we never used it. It seems like it is in the early stages of development, and it may not be widespread for at least another year to 2 years. I have very rarely had a more infuriating experience with a manufacturer. It was worse than trying to find info on a Danfoss product on their website.

 

Just my 2 Cents

Hello All!!

Awesome discussion! And, very great points!!

I can relate w/ numbawunfela pain and anguish. Especially, when all you want to do is learn something, but they put up a monetary fee just to see if you want to use it or not. That's not what I would say smart or popular to making people accept it in the first place.

This situation is how i felt about how Zigbee release to the world their open protocol. And, look how successful it has been in getting the word around. It's been out there for a very long time till finally it is getting some momentum.

What everyone should be asking themselves about communicating HVAC systems that seems to be missed here is can I buy whatever product I want and install it?

That is the definition to me of open. Can I buy the best product and price product? Or, am I locked in.

Take a look at the current communicating systems out there that have been sold by the Major HVAC distributors and see if they can work with each other.

You'll see that ClimateTalk used in those 2 OEMS as specified in this discussion should be valid point enough that it is open and able to be competitive.

So, back to numbawunfela detail discussions with the protocol people. I agree what a load of BS when all you want to do is find out how your product can be successful and make you money.

Then I suggest taking the first step and try to get a teleconference with these guys to help you understand more without having to pay. But, I do like your approach on trying to find contractors out there that have installed it.

Just to note, I think Rheem did a soft launch of this system last year some time to help grow some experience in dealing with comm systems. Hence, the lack of real marketing push and your frustration with finding info. They are waiting for a full product line of every component before really going to town in the marketing arena.

At ashrae it was shown another communicating stat at the Emerson booth that is talking ClimateTalk. Can you find another protocol that works with HVAC systems that has more than the one original stat that came out to work with it. Another proof that the design is able to go to different platforms and still operate as it is intended.

In regards to the modbus reference and how it is on the internet for all to read is again a great point. But if you ever read it, you would know that all it really defines is the lower comm layers of communicating. It doesn't tell an application developer how to be a thermostat, heat pump, or work in a dual fuel system.

To the comment about Liebert, another great point but again Liebert sells things for 10K compared to 100 dollars. So, I would hope you would think Emerson is not going to burden the HVAC world with the same costs that is seen at division like Liebert who make power manangement systems that huge in today's data management world of IT. Not, the truck of some HVAC contractor who is trying to have a cost effective and real world solution.

To the comment from numbawunfela stating "I am worried about the reinventing the wheel scenario, and investing in something I cant find english language literature on later."

Another great point, however, I would have to say that the wheel had to be re-invented because today's HVAC systems don't talk serial so how can you go around re-inventing the wheel of the current 24VAC on/offs.

I will tell you the wheel is better and can go farther from all the lessons learn in this proven 24VAC on/off system. And, isn't that what you'd expect from re-inventing something that is worthwhile.

Regarding your latest comment last night numbawunfela stating "So we never used it. It seems like it is in the early stages of development, and it may not be widespread for at least another year to 2 years. I have very rarely had a more infuriating experience with a manufacturer."

Not sure where you think it is in early stages if it is going to production last year. And, another OEM this year. I do apologize for your frustration and have been there. What I try to do is find the other person who knows the answer. Hopefully, I can.

One last tidbit, I'd like to through out to the HVAC community is that ClimateTalk is not RS-485 wired only. ClimateTalk is your applications talking the same language whatever physical medium it uses. That's powerful and can do many things in the future.

Again, I like this discussion and everything I'm stating are things that I have talked to w/ people developing this ClimateTalk systems and would be happy to answer your questions so that you can make the informed decisions to either like or hate it.

People in this economy should question everything and not just accept things.

Thanks!!

 

Sorry, I forgot to add who I am and how I relate to this topic.

My name is Jim Garozzo, and I am Communicating Systems Manager at White-Rodgers, which is a Division of Emerson. I have been working with communications protocols in the area of HVAC for at least nine years.

I'd be happy to help answer high level or low level questions regarding your questions in this fast moving HVAC world that is seeing a transition of the normal paradigm of 24VAC ON/OFFs to something serial that can not be seen without more costly tools.

Again, I like this discussion. It helps me understand how to make products better instead of another product out there with no real use.

THANKS!!

 

Full Disclosure

In the interest of full disclosure, I would like to introduce myself as Anil Ramachandran, a Communications Engineer working with Emerson Climate Technologies - White-Rodgers on ClimateTalk.

Thanks

Anil

 

Following the current trend, I am at R&D DDC/Communications at Bosch Thermotechnic. My focus is on Heat Pumps almost only at the time.
I came from the outside world as a programmer/systems design on various automated systems (To me, it seems like all variants of them ).

And as a comment, the transition from 24Vac ON/OFF to communication was a releif when it came through some years back. Today it is almost only
a question as to the different system being able to talk to each other, overcoming propriety boundaries.