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Thread: Better Than Geo - VRV

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Better Than Geo - VRV

    You are advertising the product that you are a Rep for. If you want to advertise, please Click Here!
    Last edited by HeyBob; 04-28-2010 at 09:20 PM.

  2. #2
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    That ought to make those GEO boys take notice.
    I wonder if they could put that in a GEO unit.

  3. #3
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    Thread Starter

    Smile Geo thermal water conditioning

    Geothermal water conditioning can and is used in commerical applications with VRV systems. Our office has a geothermal system installed on VRV.

  4. #4
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    Unfortunately the VRV systems are not ARI rated and cannot receive rebates or incentives.
    Unless i am wrong, in which case you can correct me.

  5. #5
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    ARI

    ARI is in the process of creating the standard for VR(X) systems to come out this year. (VR(X) is generic term for VRV which is owned by Daikin.) There will be a seperate rating named IEER or something along this line for VRV systems. As will other ARI certifications the equipment will have to undergo ARI testing before becoming certified.

    As with any product there are differences between manufacturers. One major difference is the method of defrosting of the system during sub freezing outside air temperature days. Most systems require a shutdown period to deice the condensing coil. Although heat is produced it is difficult if not impossible for this type system to keep up with heating the building. Daikin has developed a system that defrosts while the unit is continuing to run. The condensing unit is able to keep up with the heating loads even in subzero outside air temperature. Unlike water source heat pumps the critical load for equipment sizing becomes the heating load instead of the cooling load. Proper equipment selection is very important.

  6. #6
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    Hmm Not as great as one might think

    I went to class to learn what we needed to know to bid a local project, the equipment cost was more than the engineers buget for the entire mechanical part of the contract. On original bid only one vendor could supply numbers. I like the theory and am excited that it may be coming to geo. But it doesn,t have a proven trac record, we have no data to truley compare it to geo. Oh did anyone forget our country is in turmoil and Daiken or Sanyo are both made in JAPAN!!!

  7. #7
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    Cost and USA

    The cost of a VRV system in very dependent on the engineers knowledge of laying out the system. We work on a daily basis with the mechanical engineers to layout systems so they are both energy efficient and cost effective. We were a major supplier of water source heat pumps in St. Louis. The VRV system has effectively reduced our sales of WSHP to around ten percent. (I am right now putting together a WSHP submittal for a nursing home. This is one of a few we will do this year.) Last year we sold of $4 million in VRV systems in the St. Louis area. We have many different types of projects up and running.

    It is true that the VRV systems are currently made overseas. This is due to the history of the product. This system has been in use for over a decade in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. Just within the last couple of years has the product been marketed in North America. Therefore there was no need to have manufacturing in the US. This is changing. Daikin has purchase McQuay International. They have built a multi-million dollar research facility in the US to develop all of McQuay and Daikin lines into the top products on the market. As sales continue to grow expontially, Daikin will soon be able to justify manufacturing facilities in North America. Daikin is truely a multinational corporation. Last year Daikin's sales were 14.2 billion dollars. For Reference Carrier sales in 2008 were 14.9 billion.

  8. #8
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    mr geo man

    Since you are from New Haven you may be interested in attending one of our training sessions. We offer installation and job costing training for contractors on a regular basis. We will soon be the Midwest training center for Daikin. We are Thermal Mechanics in Chesterfield, MO. If you are interested send me an email at [email or call at 636-532-1110.
    Last edited by beenthere; 04-28-2010 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Removed email address

  9. #9
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    Steve, what exactly is the quaternity system?

  10. #10
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    Quaternity

    Since it is targeted at residential I am not real familiiar with the unit. It is a heat pump ductless split system that allows for humidity and temperature control. The unit uses hot gas reheat to raise the temperature off the dx coil which allows it to reduce the leaving air temperature off the coil and take more moisture out. Below is a link to their brochure on the units.

    http://www.daikinac.com/residential/...-%20Daikin.pdf

  11. #11
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    Thanks

    Steve,
    I appreciate the info and am very familiar with your company. My only contention is that evey time vrv is discussed verses geo it is said to be more efficent but no one can provide data to back up that claim. The particular job I have to reference, the decision makers had the engineering firm try to defend thier vrv system vs. geo and the engineer didn't even understand geo, the types of drilling practices, or the specific site conditions. Like I originally said I understand vrv and I think it has great potential. I will be more excited when it can be produced in america. The sad truth is Hvac is one maufacturing industry that is stiil mainly produced here, they are just using less and less american parts.

    Always appreciate good dialog on this site!!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mo geo man View Post
    Steve,
    I appreciate the info and am very familiar with your company. My only contention is that evey time vrv is discussed verses geo it is said to be more efficent but no one can provide data to back up that claim.

    Always appreciate good dialog on this site!!!
    Isnt Comparing to geo missing the point? Apples and oranges.

    Vrv efficiency is due to variable speed dc motors. Moving the heat THROUGH the system efficiently, not the absorption/transfer efficiency.

    Given all else equal its easier to pull heat fro 40f than 0f. So if applied to geo, vrv would make Geo technology even more efficient also!
    Early Adopter round is OPEN - https://www.hvac20.com/earlyadopters.html HVAC 101 free pdf - http://bit.ly/HVAC101File1118

  13. #13
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    Is'nt Comparing to geo missing the point? Apples and oranges.

    Vrv efficiency is due to variable speed dc motors. Moving the heat THROUGH the system efficiently, not the absorption/transfer efficiency.

    Given all else equal its easier to pull heat fro 40f than 0f. So if applied to geo, vrv would make Geo technology even more efficient also!
    Well said.
    Some GEO manufacturers are working with VRV and I suspect you'll see one in the next 1 - 2 years.

  14. #14
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    GEO vs VRV

    The primary issue in discussing GEO versus VRV is that the same or better efficiencies can be acheived with air cooled condensers thus eliminating the upfront and maintenance cost associated with Geothermal. Daikin does have VRV systems that are working with geothermal condensing systems. The efficiencies of this system are very high. It then becomes a return on investment question. With standard WSHP versus geothermal there is enough of an energy savings to justify the additional cost of installing and maintaining a geothermal system. Can the cost of adding geothermal to a VRV system be justified? That all depends on the geographical location, the installation cost, and the energy cost. If you have low energy cost like we do in the St. Louis area $0.07/kwh it becomes more difficult to justify the cost differential. Other areas like California at $0.22/kwh would be easier to justify. Also using cooling ponds instead of wells will lower the cost. Also some customers want the most energy efficient product available and are willing to pay more for the system to reduce their impact on the environment.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cornish View Post
    The primary issue in discussing GEO versus VRV is that the same or better efficiencies can be acheived with air cooled condensers thus eliminating the upfront and maintenance cost associated with Geothermal. ...

    It then becomes a return on investment question.
    Guess I'll try explaining this another way.

    Clearly there are variables of home tightness and insulation effectiveness, alternative energy sources and cost, and scale that all come into play. Generally the two largest factors determining Geo's return on incremental investment are:
    1. heating and cooling load (house size - geo has a fair base capital investment that a small house is unlikely to overcome)
    2. alternative energy source cost (Nat Gas = looong payback no matter what size house)


    Still, the argument should not be geo vs vrv because they are not apples to apples. Geo can utilize vrv so it is really a nonsensical argument. The type of compressor or "refrigerant" technology should be the same in both technologies in order to get an accurate measure of the incremental cost/benefit of going to ground.

    The analysis is geo vs air source. Vrv may be the best current technology, the efficiency of which makes the added capital of the geo argument harder to make.
    Early Adopter round is OPEN - https://www.hvac20.com/earlyadopters.html HVAC 101 free pdf - http://bit.ly/HVAC101File1118

  16. #16
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    operating cost

    All very good arguments and I agree they are apples and oranges, loads and insulation are key. Utility costs are the biggest factor in payback. I guess what I have been trying to compare is the vrv cost to produce 100,000 BTU. We use this as our benchmark when comparing gas, oil, air source, dual fuel and geo so when a customer askes it is black and white to produce 100,000 BTU for 1 hour ( a therm ) it costs x.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cornish View Post
    The latest technology Variable Refrigerant Volume systems have many advantages over Geothermal heat pumps. VRV is also a heat pump system that uses energy recovery to provide the highest energy efficiency on the market. The advantages of VRV are:

    1. Highest energy efficiency on the market.
    2. Low installation cost. No wells to drill. Very easy to install.
    3. Low maintenance cost. No pumping equipment to maintain.
    4. Operates below 0 degrees F in the heating mode.
    5. The system requires no special training for maintenance. Any trained HVAC technician can maintain the system.
    6. The room units are extremely quiet.

    If you want to know more check out Daikin's website at [url]Daikin is the number two manufacturer of HVAC equipment in the world. They are the parent company of McQuay International.
    Steve;

    I have some questions about using the vrv-w series for a large project. Could you PM me or respond to this thread? Thanks.
    Last edited by Senior Tech; 04-29-2010 at 12:11 AM.

  18. #18
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    Steve, I have left the rest of the posts here, your first post has been edited. Please remember that unless you purchase an ad, you can't advertise, which is what your fist post essentially was.

  19. #19
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    I was IGSHP certified and put in one loop and strained my shoulder badly sealing well holes with Bentonite and fusing joints. I spent time recooping with visits to the doctor. I didn't enjoy the mud to much either. I have also put in Daikin systems. From an installation point of view instead of efficiency, I like the air to air VRV systems. I have also serviced both extensively. Daikin is much more specialized.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mo geo man View Post
    I went to class to learn what we needed to know to bid a local project, the equipment cost was more than the engineers buget for the entire mechanical part of the contract. On original bid only one vendor could supply numbers. I like the theory and am excited that it may be coming to geo. But it doesn,t have a proven trac record, we have no data to truley compare it to geo. Oh did anyone forget our country is in turmoil and Daiken or Sanyo are both made in JAPAN!!!
    You are right,

    I agree with you.

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