house plan and pictures
Hi, perhaps someone reading this can help me.
Within the last year I have been through the remodel from #%&#$$$. I have learned to specify standards and exactly what I want, because they didn't, and when they did they didn't do it. If it weren't for a lot of research and study I wouldn't have found the 17 building code violations. These are probably all I can sue for.
Not settled yet -- then last week the furnace went out(nothing to do with remodel, but I am at my wits end). Research mode started all over again.
35 year old house, 1800 sq feet, Long Beach California near beach. I say near the beach because I am in the coolest part of Long Beach.
I'm doing more research as I am writing this.
EFFICIENCY
MODELS..................40%...60%..80%..95%
35 yo Payne 80K.......32k....48k this is what I have now, oversized
new.............70K............====>...56k....67k
..................60K........................48k.. ...57k
..................46K........................43k <===
..................40K........................32k.. ...38k
..................30K........................24k.. ...29k
Since my old furnace was still oversized until last week, when it rudely decided to retire without warning, I have had some salesmen out here.
They seem to want to sell 70K 80% model, One estimate is for Goodman which I had never heard of before. If the old one was too big at 40%-60%(depending on which salesman) surely a new 70K which puts out almost double of what the old one did, would give more oversize problems.
The current problems are (exclusive of the retirement):
1. Doesn't run long enough to circulate the air, hot and cold areas in the same room, upstairs 10-15 degrees warmer than downstairs.
2. Cycles on and off often, guessing at often, don't know what you folks consider often, half hour maybe.
3. Temperature varies too much.
4. No fan setting on furnace. I have to open cabinet door, pull out the metal furnace panel, turn dial to pilot, close furnace panel, close cabinet door, go downstairs to the thermostat and raise the temperature desired and let it run. When house is nice reverse the process so I can get some heat when needed.
5. In all but one room the registers(grill for warm air) are above the door. The heat blows in and goes right out the door! Temperature at the far end of the room is quite different.
Since I rarely put a chair under the door I feel this is rediculous, the heat doesn't make it to the bed, chair, computer, basically the rest of the room.
The doors to the two rooms upstairs are 6" and 3' from the furnace intake. One of those rooms has the air blowing on the door if open and won't go around the corner to the rest of the room.
I think the primary goal of designing this system was to minimize duct cost.
6. The temperature at the ceiling is quite different than at the floor, since I don't usually sleep or work on the ceiling this too annoys me.
7. Air coming out of registers is very hot, I would prefer warm, what should it be?
Bid-only one so far
Salesman gives an alternate size of 46K 95% the additional cost is about the same as the tax rebate, but a different salesman said the pipe up to the roof needed to be changed made pvc, not sure why, should have asked.
additional:
1. add another opening to the air intake right next to(about 3" away, around the corner) the existing one, upstairs. I would rather pull up some of the cold air from downstairs where it never gets warm no matter what! Two tiny registers down there, one next to the open stairs the other blows on the fridge! Those two registers are about 3 feet apart. What's with that?? I'm not sure if the reason for the extra intake grill is for the furnace or for proposed a/c.
Adding an Intake directly under the furnace(kitchen) would be great, need to check what is in that space though, may be wires or something. I think I will cut a hole in the floor under furnace before the next salesman comes on Thursday. Then that mystery goes away. Oh, but then intake would be a few inches from both the registers in that room. I think
2. New flue pipe from furnace to ceiling connection--is that the one that goes to the roof? Or just to ceiling?
What size do I need? I assume 95% of 46K = 43k two stage might be ok, but if 32k actual is oversized I'm in the same boat again.
Interesting, the estimate includes a thermostat that only works with a
1-stage furnace. Both estimates are 2-stage. Honeywell focuspro 6000 programmable thermostat. Am I missing something here?
Wish they would make thermostats for two story houses that worked like this: Program in 'fan only' times just like you program in different heat times, let them overlap or not. It would be great to have the fan run for a half hour before testing the temperature for turning on heat.
As hot as it is up here outside the two rooms, blowing the 80+ degree air down to the 65 degree air at the thermostat would avoid turning on the heat.
To test this theory, I bought a little fan and put it at the top of the stairs blowing straight down to the thermostat on the first floor. It helped quite a bit but still I had to put on a sweater to go downstairs then when I get back upstairs my face turns red from the heat. And it only changed things right there at the stairway, not the whole room.
With the new furnace I plan to leave the fan on almost all the time. So it would be nice for that air to be a little warmer. 80 degree air blowing doesn't feel all that warm.
A/C
Until a few years ago only NEEDED a/c about 5 days a year. About 3 weeks would have been nice.
Now onto the new central a/c, never had one, need one, getting one, I get heat sick in my old age and the climate change. Salesmen all suggest 3 ton.
How's Goodman 3 ton, 13 seer, in another thread I see a/c also has 1 and 2 stage a/c. 2 stage sounds better because I only want to cool a little, mostly rid house of humidity. Beach 1 mile away, remember. So how do I tell how many stages?
Interesting .. a bid without a model number. UH UH! Isn't that like buying a Honda♥ ithout knowing which model?
My sister lives about 12 miles directly east of me, she has same sized house, one story, 3 ton a/c, she keeps the house at 72. I would keep the house at 78 or higher. I can leave her house in the blistering heat, car a/c barely handles the heat, half way home I turn off the a/c and by the time I get home I turn on the heater in the car because it is cold.
Totally different climate. Obviously her a/c is too large for my house. I like it warm but humidity causes breathing problems.
I do not care if 3-4 times a year the a/c cannot cool the house. There won't be electricity then anyway with the rolling blackouts, not to mention the elec. plan that gives me $200/yr for putting a controller on the a/c so the elec. company can turn off the a/c at peak times to avoid a statewide blackout. I'm also at school many afternoons a week.enjoying a good a/c system with 40 other hot bodies in the room--we are all that age plus irons and sewing machines. They did that job right.
I believe I need a smaller a/c, I live upstairs in the winter so I don't freeze and downstairs in the summer so I don't bake. Only have to cool the downstairs, all the heat goes up anyway. I open and close registers in this house, annoying that they are up at the ceiling. Re-re-modeling bathroom, maybe I'll move it away from door and put it down low, the drywall has been out for 7 months now.
Another salesman wants to replace all the registers and a whole bunch of other stuff. Don't have his estimate yet$$$.
A friend has heat and cooling, both Lenox. Always nice in her house, upstairs and down. They tried to sell them a large a/c and he said they only used it at night. So the salesman sold them a smaller unit.
A/c too large is clammy, I had a wall unit once and it was too big and too clammy. Only cooled one side of the room, the side with my desk.
I'm trying to figure out how to convince the salesman to size them properly. They ask how many square feet, look around and see what the old one was and decide on tonnage.
Is manual J better than the one sold on this site? I didn't notice anything about window COVERINGS. I suppose I could give addresses in different cities to more closely fine tune. Long Beach has wildly different climates, I'll say Seal Beach.
How much furnace is needed to get a blower to handle a 3 ton a/c? What about a smaller a/c. Is there smaller? Ahhh, much button pushing revealed Goodman has 1 1/2, 2, 2 1/2 etc. ton sizes.
Went to the Lenox site and cannot find what size a/c they have.
Lots of questions.
Ask me if I need to tell more.
gailquilter
Last edited by gailquilter; 02-15-2010 at 01:07 PM. Reason: system messed up my chart
house plan and pictures
WOW!
Longest post I've seen in a while... AWESOME!
A couple of quickie's.
Keep looking until you find a contractor that will provide a manual j
A 2 stage a.c. will help with your humidity if that's a current problem, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, that that's what you need until you find a qualified contractor to give you a full system analysis.
Stay tuned. Other pro's on here will be chiming in.
Good luck!
house plan
Daddy♥♥♥ was an architect
I have a feeling that asking a contractor about Manual J will be like asking tile men about ANSI Standards and TCA Handbook(industry standards). They all said 'what's that?' until I went to a tile store who didn't install, and got a list of tile men who all have C54(tile) license.
I did email late last nite the one who gave me the estimate, asking about Manual J. But being Sunday I probably won't hear back until Monday.
I think I am the perfect case for Manual J. I would rather put bubble wrap on the windows than to get a larger furnace/ a/c.
gail
Yes...
You are the perfect candidate for a manual j, as anybody should be.
Hopefully you won't have to look to far.
To do the job right I think some registers need to be moved. Is the ceiling ok?
There is access to most of the master bedroom downstairs, one end of living room next to mbr and downstairs bath. There is upstairs access to bathroom and loft(mezzanine, only short walls on two sides) and most of two bedrooms.
Hate those registers above the doors, they DO NOT FIT!! The walls bulge. Ugly!!
I think I need to write down a plan so guy can advise.
gail
Last edited by gailquilter; 02-15-2010 at 02:17 AM. Reason: It sent itself half way through
By using a different register. The air direction can be changed to better condition your house.
Screen contractors over the phone. Ask them if they do load calcs. When they ask how many sq ft. Say sorry. I want a real load calc, I'll call someone else.
Your old furnace may only have a 40 or 50% AFUE rating. But, its steady state efficiency(when its actually running and providing heat). Is probably 74% or better.
I think I figured something out, The Manual J is an approximation, better than my thumb.
A two stage appliance should have tonnage greater than Manual J so that when it runs in stage 1 it is under Manual J and when it runs in stage 2 it is over Manual J.
Therefore they can install an oversized furnace or a/c, but when running at say 50% power I can get my undersized appliance I need for distributing the heat.
And when I get home from school early and manually up the temp or it is that coldest day of the year I can get heat fast.
I read a couple hundred more posts in the wee small hours this a.m.
I have found 4 explanations of 2 stage appliances:
1. Runs 5 or 12 minutes at stage 1 then ups to stage 2.
Goodman and Amana
2. Runs 80% of the time on stage 1 the rest is stage 2 Lenox
3. Runs on stage 1 until it realizes it is not doing the job,
ie heating and house temperature is GETTING LOWER,
then switches to stage 2
4. Runs on stage 1 while house is within 3 degrees of desired,
runs on stage 2 while house is not within 3 degrees
of desired(like when switching from nite to day.
Last edited by gailquilter; 02-15-2010 at 12:55 PM. Reason: changed to lower on item 3
You left out too many details, PLEASE provide more.
I don't know what else to tell you, thought I WAS annoyingly detailed.
any ideas?
thanks
gail
gail,
A two stage unit should not be oversized!!! It is designed for comfort not for quick recovery from setback..
Think of a manual J as this, it sizes the equipment based on a temperature that your area does not hit very often, plus even the best manual J performed has cushon built into the program for unforseen reality.. So 90% of the time a manual J sized system is oversized.. Also equipment only comes in a narrow variaty of sizes,, say the manual J calls for 71,568 btu sizing and the closest unit size has an output of 76,000 btus, so even at your design temp, the unit installed is oversized..
What a 2-stage or multi-stage unit does is more closely matches the demands(i.e. heat losses/gains) of your home which keeps the unit running longer quieter cycles and more evenly heats or cools the space..
You want the right size unit whether single stage or multi/2- stage..
Goodluck
J
[QUOTE=gailquilter;5911182]I think I figured something out, The Manual J is an approximation, better than my thumb.
A two stage appliance should have tonnage greater than Manual J so that when it runs in stage 1 it is under Manual J and when it runs in stage 2 it is over Manual J.
/QUOTE]
No its not
There are idiots out there who think 1st stage should be sized to the building load
I wish I had a $1.00 for every response I deleted.....
"Decidedly Superior in a twisted pathetic way".....
Gail,
You stated a 2-stage or multi stage should be oversized so the second stage will have more capacity to quickly recover from a setback.. That is incorrect..
A 2-stage/multistage should be sized the same as a single stage!!!
Example:
House calls for 71k btu output
Single stage option 80k btu input/76k btu output
Two stage/ multistage option- 80K btu input/ 76K btu output on high stage..
You would not want to go up to 100K btu input/ 95K btu output on high stage, because then your not getting what you are paying for.. Now you have a louder unit(needs more airflow), have a oversized unit that is not running at a low enough low stage to heat your home more evenly...etc.. Also you paid for more unit than your home calls for.. unneeded..
Goodluck
J
I just searched whole house fan. It would only search on 'house' it discarded whole and fan. Some other term?
Seems I need two. Like today, no furnace for about two weeks. 67 degrees when I woke up, went down to 62 by noon. Outside is warm 74 and sunny so I opened the windows.
If I had a whole house fan downstairs it would suck in the heat.
In the summer a whole house fan upstairs would suck in the cool air from the patio.
Never thought about having two before.
Wondered about exhausting some into the attic, it gets blistering up there in the summer. Glad I re-roofed from dark brown to med-light grey.
Wish the furnace could exaust the air, it is upstairs, maybe a duct I could shut off? They claim the air only fan runs about the same as a 100 watt light bulb. I wonder how much air that moves? My little fan blowing down the stairs is .4 amp so about 48 watts? Cannot feel it downstairs but does change the temp.
gail
Of course not, but what I have read everywhere is do J then get a furnace/ ac which is a little OVER that size.
Over that size==over sized a little, v.s. UNDER sized which would be 95% of 70K = 66.5k output in your example.
If my old furnace was as bad as I thought it was, it only put out 28k and it never in 35 years ran continuously. NEVER.
You have to understand I am very literal. And I read slowly and carefully due to all my life most of my reading was math and science textbooks or instructional books. I did study heat transfer. My expertise is applied math and designing computer systems.
Maybe the term should have been 'a LITTLE' oversized. Did you read my first post where I objected to a 95% 70K input system because it was a LOT overisized in my opinion, same feeling about 80% 70K system.
This whole thread is to find a way to use a smaller than 70K unit and talking the contractor into doing it.
BTW the one that hasn't come out yet called today and I asked, and they do the J-thing or one very similar. Good, I have already started a list of my house measurements. Have to do that, they don't know how I live. Went through the videos on calculator on this site, home and commercial and wrote down the stuff they needed.
In the 1960's when I worked at IBM in San Jose they had installed a system to pump the warm air from one side of a building to the other, and vice versa for the cold air. Of course it was hooked up the a/c and heating too when that was needed. Talk about saving on heating/cooling costs!! They had found the air conditioning was coming on in one side and heat coming on in the other, at the same time(big plant). Have to keep those employees confortable, or they quit. Building was their plant in Fla. or NY, cannot remember. I know it can be done, but nobody wants to sell it to the public.
Similar to the oil industry's pumping fluids all over the country.
gail
Your reading the wrong things then.Of course not, but what I have read everywhere is do J then get a furnace/ ac which is a little OVER that size.
Over that size==over sized a little, v.s. UNDER sized which would be 95% of 70K = 66.5k output in your example.
Don't increase size over what the load calc says.
You are not hearing me! They don't make a 71k per your example
gail