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Thread: Non-Communicating Heat Pump Model Purchase Advice

  1. #21
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    Jan 2020
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    Winnipeg Canada
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    I'm in winnipeg. Typically I'm installing basic 14 seer heat pumps and with natural gas the balance point is usually-8 -10 Celsius for switch over.
    I have installed a few hyper heat models, however they need to be so far oversized for heating loads, that humidity and short cycling become a problem in cooling season.
    Any of the major manufacturers make a really decent basic heat pump.
    I prefer trane and carrier.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restaurant mech View Post
    I'm in winnipeg. Typically I'm installing basic 14 seer heat pumps and with natural gas the balance point is usually-8 -10 Celsius for switch over.
    I have installed a few hyper heat models, however they need to be so far oversized for heating loads, that humidity and short cycling become a problem in cooling season.
    Any of the major manufacturers make a really decent basic heat pump.
    I prefer trane and carrier.
    Thanks for the local info! I've heard here that a feature of the modulating/variable heat pumps is that given their "modulating" functioning you can oversize them for larger heating loads, and they will "step down" their cooling output in the cooling season. Of course, with my "non-communicating" setup that may not be the case. I do need (at least) 2-stages of heat pump heating/cooling as I have (soon to be) 4 zones on 4 levels in my 1500 sq ft. home. The HZ432 zoning panel will call for a reduced output if only one zone is calling (also has an option for % of zones calling). This works great with my 2-stage, variable-speed furnace. I'm still researching on how a modulating heat pump will work with the current setup.

    My neighbour shared a quote with some options they are considering (they would like to "ditch" natural gas - they are/were thinking of a full-electric furnace with an added heat pump for transition months). I did a $/BTU comparison and even given our relatively low local electricity rates ($0.9324/kWh), a 96% efficiency gas furnace is almost exactly half the cost to operate over full electric. That will most likely deter them, however, depending on just how badly they want/can afford to move away from gas, they may consider a 20 SEER/10 HSPF Heat Pump (saving $1500 on the electric furnace (over a gas unit), and "investing" an additional $4800/2x above the cost of just upgrading their current AC unit).

    Their Lennox mid-efficiency gas furnace is 25 years old so it is most likely time to consider options. They are also taking into consideration what potential new owners of the home will be looking for in 10-15 years when they want to sell.

    We are fortunate to have an ample supply of "green" hydroelectric power here in Manitoba, but unless the cost of natural gas doubles in the next 5-10 years I think we still need to plan to supplement (heat pumps) with it to make any economic sense.

  3. #23
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    Aug 2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by ss120396 View Post
    That's a tough one, I don't know that there's really an official definition.

    I'd recommend checking out this database:

    https://ashp.neep.org/

    They basically count every heat pump with a variable speed compressor as a "cold climate heat pump". The heat pumps vary widely in their performance at cold temperatures - some will maintain their full capacity into the negatives (Fahrenheit), others start dropping off in the 20s. But the idea with the variable speed compressor is that you can go up a size or two to get the heating capacity you need, while not being oversized in the summer as it can just ramp down.
    Doing further research into what heat pump rebates may be available here in Manitoba and Canada, I came across the definition that Gov't of Canada requires for a "qualified" ccASHP (cold climate Air Source Heat Pump). It's very specific and I can see that unless I can figure out a way to incorporate a retro-fit indoor coil that will provide me with an AHRI-matching certificate number (as others have stated here), I will not be able to qualify for any rebates. The rebates do seem very substantial - Federally offered is the "Canada Greener Homes Grant Initiative" rebate of $5k for a qualified ccASHP install, as well the local "Efficiency Manitoba’s Heat Pump Program" of $1.65/sq ft for the same (Federal rebate drops to $4k for "only" ASHP, MB Provincial drops to $1/sq ft for same).

    "The newly installed system must meet the following criteria:
    - compressor must be of variable capacity with three or more distinct operating speeds, or continuously variable speed (local343mb note - this is a specific requirement for qualifying as "ccASHP", but not ASHP)
    - COP ≥ 1.8 at -15 C (5 F) (at maximum capacity operation); (local343mb note - this is a specific requirement for qualifying as "ccASHP", but not ASHP)
    - Capacity maintenance (Max -15 C (5 F)/Rated 8.3 C (47 F)) ≥ 70% (local343mb note - this is a specific requirement for qualifying as "ccASHP", but not ASHP)
    - minimum total rated heating capacity at 8.3 C of 3.52 kW (12,000 Btu/h) (local343mb note - also required for qualifying "ASHP")
    - HSPF (AHRI Climate Region Zone IV) ≥ 10 (local343mb note - also required for qualifying "ASHP")
    Note: For central ducted and hybrid systems, the furnace or air handler must always be the specified matching unit. (local343mb note - also required for qualifying "ASHP")

    Link to MB ASHP Program details - https://efficiencymb.ca/heat-pump-pr...ce-heat-pumps/
    Federal ASHP program details - https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-effic...rofit/23504#s5

    Yeesh - this all started by my getting fed up with the 14k BTU floor AC unit being too loud and my considering central AC then, ---> Heat Pump and A-coil ---> change out entire system to qualify for $7500 of rebates? Hard to pass up "free" money but I am not going to start from square one - but this looks to be a good option for my neighbour.

    I will look further into seeing if I can find an AHRI-matching combo of heat pump + coil (rather than heat pump + air handler/new furnace) that "might" qualify for something (but not holding my breath).

    Currently, I am looking into the Napoleon brand more. Learning they are a very well-established Canadian company that (hopefully) manufactures here as well. Found a local Napeoleon dealer that is a registered installerr with "Efficiency Manitoba's" Heat Pump program, so I'll give them a call.

  4. #24
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    Jan 2020
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    Winnipeg Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by local343mb View Post
    Doing further research into what heat pump rebates may be available here in Manitoba and Canada, I came across the definition that Gov't of Canada requires for a "qualified" ccASHP (cold climate Air Source Heat Pump). It's very specific and I can see that unless I can figure out a way to incorporate a retro-fit indoor coil that will provide me with an AHRI-matching certificate number (as others have stated here), I will not be able to qualify for any rebates. The rebates do seem very substantial - Federally offered is the "Canada Greener Homes Grant Initiative" rebate of $5k for a qualified ccASHP install, as well the local "Efficiency Manitoba’s Heat Pump Program" of $1.65/sq ft for the same (Federal rebate drops to $4k for "only" ASHP, MB Provincial drops to $1/sq ft for same).

    "The newly installed system must meet the following criteria:
    - compressor must be of variable capacity with three or more distinct operating speeds, or continuously variable speed (local343mb note - this is a specific requirement for qualifying as "ccASHP", but not ASHP)
    - minimum total rated heating capacity at 8.3 C of 3.52 kW (12,000 Btu/h) (local343mb note - also required for qualifying "ASHP")
    - HSPF (AHRI Climate Region Zone IV) ≥ 10 (local343mb note - also required for qualifying "ASHP")
    - COP ≥ 1.8 at -15 C (5 F) (at maximum capacity operation); (local343mb note - this is a specific requirement for qualifying as "ccASHP", but not ASHP)
    - Capacity maintenance (Max -15 C (5 F)/Rated 8.3 C (47 F)) ≥ 70% (local343mb note - this is a specific requirement for qualifying as "ccASHP", but not ASHP)
    Note: For central ducted and hybrid systems, the furnace or air handler must always be the specified matching unit. (local343mb note - also required for qualifying "ASHP")

    Link to MB ASHP Program details - https://efficiencymb.ca/heat-pump-pr...ce-heat-pumps/
    Federal ASHP program details - https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-effic...rofit/23504#s5

    Yeesh - this all started by my getting fed up with the 14k BTU floor AC unit being too loud and my considering central AC then, ---> Heat Pump and A-coil ---> change out entire system to qualify for $7500 of rebates? Hard to pass up "free" money but I am not going to start from square one - but this looks to be a good option for my neighbour.

    I will look further into seeing if I can find an AHRI-matching combo of heat pump + coil (rather than heat pump + air handler/new furnace) that "might" qualify for something.
    Right now for rebates I'm pretty sure it's only carrier and panasonic that qualify.....
    May have changed with more models meeting the criteria by now. I haven't looked into it in 6 months.
    As far as variable units turning down.... expect only a realistic 50% reduction in capacity.
    Yes they advertise as low as 25%. However, these variable units need to ramp up every few hours for oil return.
    So even a 2 stage 4 ton heat pump would be problematic in summer.
    Your realistic cooling load is probably 2 tons just by guessing.
    And that's on a design day.
    So a 4 ton running on low would still be short cycling most of the time for cooling.
    However, if you do the load calculations based on outdoor temperature of -10c for the heat pump, and accept you'll still burn gas in the colder weather, then you'll probably wind up between 2 and 3 tons.
    And most of the time when I'm doing this, I default to the smaller unit and set it up so that it switches over at -7 or-8.
    The reality here in Manitoba is that it's virtually impossible to size a heat pump for both cooling and heating loads.
    Even the geo systems I deal with, we need electric strip heaters because 5 or 6 tons of cooling is FAR too much for cooling.

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