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Thread: Stupid walk in cooler -- equip. Sizing help.

  1. #1
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    Stupid walk in cooler -- equip. Sizing help.

    OK, I'll preface the following with:

    Turning this space into a "cooler" was a horrible idea. They want 34*.🙄

    BUT...I got wrapped up in attempting to size equipment for this. My local reps don't wanna touch it, which I don't blame them for.....I already told the customer they won't get any warranty for anything, since they don't have an engineer assisting with sizing....so essentially, we're guessing, and it may or may not work.

    All that said, can someone help get me in the ballpark on sizing?

    The equipment tags are the new equipment, that didn't last a week.

    This some of the info they sent. It looks like 2 walls are insulated, the brick is not. The brick is an exterior wall. The doors open to a space that is conditioned.

    Cooler space is 10’ x 15’ x 12’ high.

    - Brick wall is exterior, approximately 6” thick & looks to be solid and very old historically.

    - Glass doors are 7’ tall x 6’ wide cooler rated glass used for self-serve can beer sales

    - They want to keep the unit you have pictures of in place and add a second unit for the primary cooling. The existing unit will be a backup or used in heavy loads.

    - Floor is concrete and 6” thick

    - Insulated walls are two sheets of insulation board 2” thick R-25 to make 4” thick.

    We may end up being limited by availability. UR is only stocking 18,000 btu units. Haven't had time to check elsewhere.

    So, anyone wanna spitball?

  2. #2
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    Pics

    Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    Outdoor ambient?
    Expected hot loads added to space?
    How fast do they expect it to pull down after having 4000lbs of 85 degree beer bottles put inside?
    Really can't run numbers on that without those variables.
    So get 2 of those 18000 btu systems and you should be good.

  4. #4
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    You're never going to maintain 34°F or even close with a brick wall. It MUST be insulated.
    Single pain glass WILL be running water 90% of the time.

  5. #5
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    I'd be concerned about mold. Brick is porous. The heat and moisture going to suck right thru the wall.
    That being said, I'd put you at least 24,000btu's
    Officially, Down for the count

    YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET

    I know enough to know, I don't know enough
    Why is it that those who complain the most contribute the least?
    MONEY CAN'T BUY HAPPINESS. POVERTY CAN'T BUY ANYTHING

  6. #6
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    I know guys, the whole thing is a disaster......that's what happens in these breweries. They dump a ton of money into the brewing equipment, and have zero clue about anything else.....then when you tell them whats needed, it's too expensive.

    Personally, I would have liked to have a look at that poor condenser, before it died!! That little guy was prolly screaming for cold return gas, and lower amp draw!!! 😂

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  8. #7
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    Circling back to this. Ran some spitball numbers with one of my vendors. We came up with around 24,000 btu. for this "walk-in".

    Seeing as how I really can't tell how this will perform, I'm thinking of ways to keep from short cycling, if we end up oversized.

    We've got 2 Evaps. I'm thinking about staging them with individual LLSV's and stats.

    Do you guys see any problems running 12k (slightly derated for altitude) on a roughly 28k condenser (derated)?

    I would think just lower pressures than running both evaps at once. Velocity with a single should keep oil return from being an issue.

    My other thought is running both evaps, but raising SH into the high 20's or more.

    As long as i have compressor cooling, I don't think there will be other issues.

    Is the standard of 60* minimum return gas temp the same for medium temp, or does the gas temp need to remain lower, due to gas density, and compression ratio?

    Gonna be running 448A on this.

    Thanks for the help on this monstrosity. I want to keep the compressor alive over all else here, so any input is appreciated!

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    You're never going to maintain 34°F or even close with a brick wall. It MUST be insulated.
    Single pain glass WILL be running water 90% of the time.
    Sure you can. 20 tons should do it.
    Nest is POO!!

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    Sure you can. 20 tons should do it.
    After looking at it, that may be the case!! LOL!!

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    Is the intended space where the garage door is ?

  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTP99 View Post
    Is the intended space where the garage door is ?
    No, the cooled space is the room behind that counter, with all the small shelves and cans stacked inside. the pic with the evap on ceiling is that space, with the outside wall to the right (with the window).

    the glass wall with the cans is single pane glass, while the outside wall is double pane insulated glass. the ceiling where the evap is hung, is an uninsulated drywall space. 2 of the interior walls have styrofoam insulation.

    I'm thinking of doing the staging of the evaps, simply to CYA on capacity control, in case things go sideways (when things go sideways).....just a little more flexibility.

    they already have been told it's a disaster.....walls and windows will be sweating, etc. the only saving grace will possibly be the low humidity year round here......still gonna cause problems though.

    I had the equipment supplier remove the unit serial numbers from the warranty system also, which the customer knows.

    One of those deals where you explain everything to the customer, but they still want it. You try to help people, but you know how that goes.

  14. #12
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    Whats the brand of those evaps?

  15. #13
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    So why do they have the condensing unit rejecting heat to the space ?

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    Trenton TTM215's

    V, It's actually a benefit, as that space is conditioned....well except for the open garage door!! LOL!!

  17. #15
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    How is dumping heat for the a/c to reject a benefit 🤔

  18. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTP99 View Post
    How is dumping heat for the a/c to reject a benefit 🤔
    This building is an old converted dairy, they turned into high end commercial spaces. The common area is several thousand square feet, and is open all through the first floor. That's the space where the condenser is.

    It was 90* outside the other day, and prolly high 70's inside. Kinda silly that they have that roll up door open, but whatever! LOL!!

  19. #17
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    It will be beneficial during the winter 😃

  20. #18
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    Well, got this system installed and running. We ended up moving the units from our original intended location, to keep the airflow off the glass. Also decided to hang lower for more air circulation.

    Had to adjust the valves slightly to get close to 20*SH at the compressor. Gonna stop in next week for the final check and TXV adjustment.

    I think we may have hit pretty close on the load Calc., we'll know more next week.

    Gave it 11 defrost cycles a day. Coils were already getting light frost within an hour of run time, so we may have to up the number of cycles.

    Installed 2 LLSV's, just in case we have to make some staging changes in the future.

    Overall, I'm fairly happy with how it went, seeing as how it was a shoot from the hip job. But....time will tell.

    Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

  21. #19
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    Stopped to check on this, compressor SH is 21*. Unit has a very short off cycle....like 3-5 minutes. Drawing 10amps, LRA is 24. Hopefully the low amp draw and SH helps make it survive.

    They are supposed to insulate the ceiling space, and seal all the cracks everywhere, hopefully that helps lengthen the off cycles.

    For what it is, we did the best we could. If they can improve the envelope, it will likely live.

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  23. #20
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    Congrats!!!

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