Possible leak could be expensive/intrusive. Looking for options/advice

[BangDingOw]

Hi there.
Just registered, so I want to say hi, and also mention how much I appreciate independent message boards such as these. I prefer to stay away from horrible forums that reside on the giant platforms. The most valuable advice I've ever received on the Internet has always been from well moderated boards like this one. They tend to have a core group of super knowledgable and talented regulars that have been around since the beginning. Again, I'm so glad I found this forum, and really appreciate its existence.
On to my problem:
I have a typical indoor/outdoor hvac system for a 1300 sq foot house.

I had my outdoor unit replaced two months ago. I live on the coast in central Florida, and this would be my 2nd unit in 12 years, which is not uncommon for this area. Anyway, a few days ago the cooling system started having trouble maintaining 78 degrees once the outdoor temp hit around 90 in the afternoon. I called the HVAC co and was able to get an appt for a few days later.

Around the same time the cooling issues started, I noticed that some of the floor tiles in the kitchen were around 10-15 degrees cooler than the others. At first I thought this was unrelated. I assumed that this might be underground water pipes, and there might be a leak. When I went out to investigate, I realized that these were likely the refrigerant lines. The outdoor unit is just outside the kitchen. I also noticed that one of the pipes on the outside of the outdoor unit had a block of ice around it where there was no insulation covering the pipe.

A "few days later" is today, and the HVAC guy came over, checked the system and said it had lost refrigerant and it was likely a leak. If I recall correctly he said that it was down to around 95psi from around 120psi (not positive about these numbers). He said that he topped it off and added a sealant that may or may not fix the leak, and added that it wasn't a lot of coolant lost, so it might not be too bad of a leak. He said that there'd be a small amount of coolant loss as the sealant did its job, and they'd have to top it off again, however, if it continues to lose coolant, the leak must be repaired.

My concern is that the leak is somewhere under (or in) my concrete foundation. The lines run from the outdoor unit on the East side of the house, to the indoor unit in the attic on the West side of the house. My house has vaulted ceilings and no real attic except for the small area where the air handler is. I'm scratching my head wondering why the original contractors thought it was a bad idea to put the outdoor unit right next to the indoor unit where there is easy access, and a short throw between the two, and instead cement it under the house!

My questions are:
* Should the hvac guy have attempted to locate the leak? I'm sure he checked the outdoor unit, but didn't look at the indoor unit.
* Is there a way to find and/or repair leaks under concrete foundation? The house was built in 1980. Did they make these pipes with easy access back then, or is this going to be a situation where I have to rip up my foundation?
* Would it be good option to relocate the outdoor unit to the West side of the house which has direct access to the attic space where the indoor unit lives?
* Any other ideas of how I should handle this (other than a 5th of wild turkey)?

Sorry for the epic post. Here's the TLDR:
* AC failing due to loss of refrigerant
* Some of the coolant pipes are under the house, probably IN the concrete slab (that side of the house, the East side, is all vaulted ceilings, so no access that way). The leak may be there.
* Air Handler up in the attic is on the West side with easy outside access, and wondering if moving the outside unit to the West side is a good option)

Thanks!
Drew

[Poodle Head Mikey]

uh oh! SumTingWong! Maybe WeeTuLo?

Hi there.
Just registered, so I want to say hi, and also mention how much I appreciate independent message boards such as these. I prefer to stay away from horrible forums that reside on the giant platforms. The most valuable advice I've ever received on the Internet has always been from well moderated boards like this one. They tend to have a core group of super knowledgable and talented regulars that have been around since the beginning. Again, I'm so glad I found this forum, and really appreciate its existence.
On to my problem:
I have a typical indoor/outdoor hvac system for a 1300 sq foot house.

I had my outdoor unit replaced two months ago. I live on the coast in central Florida, and this would be my 2nd unit in 12 years, which is not uncommon for this area. Anyway, a few days ago the cooling system started having trouble maintaining 78 degrees once the outdoor temp hit around 90 in the afternoon. I called the HVAC co and was able to get an appt for a few days later.

Around the same time the cooling issues started, I noticed that some of the floor tiles in the kitchen were around 10-15 degrees cooler than the others. At first I thought this was unrelated. I assumed that this might be underground water pipes, and there might be a leak. When I went out to investigate, I realized that these were likely the refrigerant lines. The outdoor unit is just outside the kitchen. I also noticed that one of the pipes on the outside of the outdoor unit had a block of ice around it where there was no insulation covering the pipe.

A "few days later" is today, and the HVAC guy came over, checked the system and said it had lost refrigerant and it was likely a leak. If I recall correctly he said that it was down to around 95psi from around 120psi (not positive about these numbers). He said that he topped it off and added a sealant that may or may not fix the leak, and added that it wasn't a lot of coolant lost, so it might not be too bad of a leak. He said that there'd be a small amount of coolant loss as the sealant did its job, and they'd have to top it off again, however, if it continues to lose coolant, the leak must be repaired.

My concern is that the leak is somewhere under (or in) my concrete foundation. The lines run from the outdoor unit on the East side of the house, to the indoor unit in the attic on the West side of the house. My house has vaulted ceilings and no real attic except for the small area where the air handler is. I'm scratching my head wondering why the original contractors thought it was a bad idea to put the outdoor unit right next to the indoor unit where there is easy access, and a short throw between the two, and instead cement it under the house!

My questions are:
* Should the hvac guy have attempted to locate the leak? I'm sure he checked the outdoor unit, but didn't look at the indoor unit.
* Is there a way to find and/or repair leaks under concrete foundation? The house was built in 1980. Did they make these pipes with easy access back then, or is this going to be a situation where I have to rip up my foundation?
* Would it be good option to relocate the outdoor unit to the West side of the house which has direct access to the attic space where the indoor unit lives?
* Any other ideas of how I should handle this (other than a 5th of wild turkey)?

Sorry for the epic post. Here's the TLDR:
* AC failing due to loss of refrigerant
* Some of the coolant pipes are under the house, probably IN the concrete slab (that side of the house, the East side, is all vaulted ceilings, so no access that way). The leak may be there.
* Air Handler up in the attic is on the West side with easy outside access, and wondering if moving the outside unit to the West side is a good option)

Thanks!
Drew

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Was refrigerant being added routinely before the present unit was installed?

If not; basic logic would suggest that the last change made to the previously not-leaking system is the likeliest site of the present leak. Were the under-concrete refrigerant lines replaced or re-used?

Was the HVAC Guy who came out this time from the same company who installed the new equipment?

PHM
------

Hi there.

Just registered, so I want to say hi, and also mention how much I appreciate independent message boards such as these. I prefer to stay away from horrible forums that reside on the giant platforms. The most valuable advice I've ever received on the Internet has always been from well moderated boards like this one. They tend to have a core group of super knowledgable and talented regulars that have been around since the beginning. Again, I'm so glad I found this forum, and really appreciate its existence.
On to my problem:
I have a typical indoor/outdoor hvac system for a 1300 sq foot house.

I had my outdoor unit replaced two months ago. I live on the coast in central Florida, and this would be my 2nd unit in 12 years, which is not uncommon for this area. Anyway, a few days ago the cooling system started having trouble maintaining 78 degrees once the outdoor temp hit around 90 in the afternoon. I called the HVAC co and was able to get an appt for a few days later.

Around the same time the cooling issues started, I noticed that some of the floor tiles in the kitchen were around 10-15 degrees cooler than the others. At first I thought this was unrelated. I assumed that this might be underground water pipes, and there might be a leak. When I went out to investigate, I realized that these were likely the refrigerant lines. The outdoor unit is just outside the kitchen. I also noticed that one of the pipes on the outside of the outdoor unit had a block of ice around it where there was no insulation covering the pipe.

A "few days later" is today, and the HVAC guy came over, checked the system and said it had lost refrigerant and it was likely a leak. If I recall correctly he said that it was down to around 95psi from around 120psi (not positive about these numbers). He said that he topped it off and added a sealant that may or may not fix the leak, and added that it wasn't a lot of coolant lost, so it might not be too bad of a leak. He said that there'd be a small amount of coolant loss as the sealant did its job, and they'd have to top it off again, however, if it continues to lose coolant, the leak must be repaired.

My concern is that the leak is somewhere under (or in) my concrete foundation. The lines run from the outdoor unit on the East side of the house, to the indoor unit in the attic on the West side of the house. My house has vaulted ceilings and no real attic except for the small area where the air handler is. I'm scratching my head wondering why the original contractors thought it was a bad idea to put the outdoor unit right next to the indoor unit where there is easy access, and a short throw between the two, and instead cement it under the house!

My questions are:
* Should the hvac guy have attempted to locate the leak? I'm sure he checked the outdoor unit, but didn't look at the indoor unit.
* Is there a way to find and/or repair leaks under concrete foundation? The house was built in 1980. Did they make these pipes with easy access back then, or is this going to be a situation where I have to rip up my foundation?
* Would it be good option to relocate the outdoor unit to the West side of the house which has direct access to the attic space where the indoor unit lives?
* Any other ideas of how I should handle this (other than a 5th of wild turkey)?

Sorry for the epic post. Here's the TLDR:
* AC failing due to loss of refrigerant
* Some of the coolant pipes are under the house, probably IN the concrete slab (that side of the house, the East side, is all vaulted ceilings, so no access that way). The leak may be there.
* Air Handler up in the attic is on the West side with easy outside access, and wondering if moving the outside unit to the West side is a good option)

Thanks!
Drew

[BangDingOw]

Was refrigerant being added routinely before the present unit was installed?
------

No, there def. was no routine of adding refrigerant over the last 12 years. We replaced the outdoor unit 2x, but it's always seemed to hold refrigerant.

If not; basic logic would suggest that the last change made to the previously not-leaking system is the likeliest site of the present leak. Were the under-concrete refrigerant lines replaced or re-used?
------

As far as I know, the under-concrete lines were re-used. i'm assuming that they can't be replaced without tearing up the floor. If they're in some kind of sleeve or conduit, then maybe they were, but the hvac guy seemed to be wondering how they would run the lines if there was a leak under the concrete, which leads me to believe that there is no easy way to access those lines.

Was the HVAC Guy who came out this time from the same company who installed the new equipment?
------

Yes. It's a local company, and they usually send the same guy out. He was not present for the unit replacement 2 months ago, but he is usually the one who investigates when there's an issue.

Thanks!

Drew

[BangDingOw]

uh oh! SumTingWong! Maybe WeeTuLo?

You know it haha

[bobboan]

Adding refrigerant and leakstop without even attempting to find the leak first is a lazy, shoddy practice, but all too common.

There’s no such thing as a “mechanic in a can” and despite the manufacture’s claims to the contrary, I’ve seen the stuff clog up capillary tubes and driers in the system.

A real mechanic has a quality leak detector like an H10 and knows how to use it to find leaks. A hack uses a hit and run approach.

[BangDingOw]

Adding refrigerant and leakstop without even attempting to find the leak first is a lazy, shoddy practice, but all too common.

There’s no such thing as a “mechanic in a can” and despite the manufacture’s claims to the contrary, I’ve seen the stuff clog up capillary tubes and driers in the system.

A real mechanic has a quality leak detector like an H10 and knows how to use it to find leaks. A hack uses a hit and run approach.

Yeah I was thinking that. I assume that if there was a leak it could maybe be near the inside unit, correct? He never looked at that. Just added the refrigerant and never made a real determination ("it might be a leak). Even worse I was thinking that maybe there was a problem with the install, and he found/fixed it and covered it up so he could charge me $*** for refrigerant and say the sealer fixed it. If the pressure drops again, then maybe there is a leek, but I'm def going to call someone else and get a second pair of eyes on it.

Please refrain from adding prices to your posts. It is not allowed by forum rules.

[pecmsg]

If the pressure drops again, then maybe there is a leek, but I'm def going to call someone else and get a second pair of eyes on it.

No MAYBE about it. If refrigerant has to be add them there IS a leak.

[hvacvegas]

Probably leaking from where they connected your new unit.

It's upsetting your new unit has a leak.

It's a travesty that he put leak stop into a new unit


Are you saying he charged you to fix a 2 month old unit?

[TechmanTerry]

uh oh! SumTingWong! Maybe WeeTuLo?

X2 this Gent.

What is the distance between the outdoor & indoor units? New outdoor units comes w/ refrigerant for just 15' of lineset. What months of the year was the new system installed?
How many lbs of juice was added?
AC units last 6 years and need to be replaced? Why? IDK but sounds "not right".

[BangDingOw]

X2 this Gent.

What is the distance between the outdoor & indoor units? New outdoor units comes w/ refrigerant for just 15' of lineset. What months of the year was the new system installed?
How many lbs of juice was added?
AC units last 6 years and need to be replaced? Why? IDK but sounds "not right".

Hey Terry, Thanks for the reply.

The outdoor unit is on one side of the house, and the handler is in the attic on the other side of the house, so I'm guessing it's about 30' between the two. The new outdoor unit was installed around March 25 of this year (3 months ago). I don't know how much R410A they added at the time of install, but everything was working fine for two months. I had them come out again at the end of May (about a month ago) because the temperature wouldn't go below 80 degrees, and they added 2 lbs of R410A, some leak sealant and UV dye. Charged me for the sealant, the UV dye, the R410A and the visit.

Now it's one month later, and it's happening again. Having trouble reaching the desired temp (78).
AC Units by coastal florida fail frequently. My system failed the day I moved in here in July 2011, then needed to be replaced in I believe the end of 2018, then again three months ago. Not sure why the one installed in 2011 lasted 7 years, and th eone installed in 2018 only lasted 3-4 years, but I can say for certain, there were never any issues with leaks during all of that time. The system kept the house cool. Losing coolant didn't become a problem until 2 months after this last one was installed. I guess it could be a coincidence. I called another HVAC guy and he said it might be the condenser coil, and under warrantee they'd have to replace the outdoor unit.

[BangDingOw]

Probably leaking from where they connected your new unit.

It's upsetting your new unit has a leak.

It's a travesty that he put leak stop into a new unit


Are you saying he charged you to fix a 2 month old unit?

Yeah, they only replaced the outdoor unit and kept the handler, and all of the refrigerant lines inside the house. They're claiming that the leak is the inside lines (which run under the concrete foundation), and that everything is fine with the outdoor unit.
The problem has started again, so I'm trying to figure out what to do next. But yeah they charged me for the lost R410A (2lb), the UV dye, sealant (more than the R410A!), and the visit.

[bobboan]

What they did is shoddy at best. If the AHU is not a listed AHRI match, then you have reduced or no warranty on the new outdoor unit.

The fact that you say there were no performance or leak issues before the unit was replaced indicates the leak is on the outdoor unit.

The fact that they wouldn’t leak test it and instead put FixAFlat in it proves they’re hacks.

The fact that they are charging you for all this without confirming where the leak is shows they’re dishonest.