Schneider Smartx MP-C controllers????

[Milkman Spawn]

Independent partners don't all have access to the same crap. Far as I can figure it depends on how you got assimilated into the borg. Maybe its how far you jump for them.

This is true in the sense that Andover partners cant buy legacy IA controllers/software, and vice-versa, but we all use the same ecostruxure front end and smartX controllers going forward.

[orion242]

This is true in the sense that Andover partners cant buy legacy IA controllers/software, and vice-versa, but we all use the same ecostruxure front end and smartX controllers going forward.

Pretty sure old TAC dealers have no option to get whatever they want to call ecostruxure this week.

[Milkman Spawn]

Pretty sure old TAC dealers have no option to get whatever they want to call ecostruxure this week.

Maybe there is some sort of volume threshold or other hoops to jump through as you previously suggested, though I'm pretty sure the original intent was for Schneider to divorce themselves from Niagara and they certainly dont want to continue supporting Vista and whatever other legacy software is out there. Anecdotally I was working at a casino a few years back with tons of R2 and G3 Jaces and they were basically being told by their TAC vendor that they had no choice but to "upgrade" to ecostruxure.

[numbawunfela]

Anecdotally I was working at a casino a few years back with tons of R2 and G3 Jaces and they were basically being told by their TAC vendor that they had no choice but to "upgrade" to ecostruxure.

I have heard something similar on numerous occasions. With the difficult relationship we have had with Schneider, we just make a good nickel on service, keeping our numbers high enough to keep our quota filled. Then we rip it out and put anything but Schneider in there when the need for a project arises.

[VAEngineer]

We tried in our shop to get JACEs and they would not sell to is, although we are a Schneider rep. And other IA dealers have said they were ACTIVELY and aggressively trying to squash the JACE line, even discontinuing it completely for a while when their sweetheart deal with AX went out and N4 came around. Until open revolt put an end to that....
Basically, I have heard nothing that would support the idea there is any active support by Schneider for anything JACE based.
But I am open to hearing if there is anything to be heard.

So as the OP, I am glad it got you guys talking about such things! Should I worried about this contractor showing me a design with a schneider JACE 8000? Are you saying that schneider doesn't want to support this?

[numbawunfela]

So as the OP, I am glad it got you guys talking about such things! Should I worried about this contractor showing me a design with a schneider JACE 8000? Are you saying that schneider doesn't want to support this?

When Niagara was born, it was some Schneider guys that left and made it. There was a lawsuit andschneider got rights to make their own JACEs, among other things. This is R2 stuff. Under AX, Schneider could and did enforce a brand lockout through the license. So only a licensed Schneider workbench could connect to their AX JACEs.
So from top to bottom, it operated like a locked down Schneider only product. Like Struxureware where a non-dealer could not touch it.
N4 ended the brand lockout, so it was not possible to prevent non IA dealers from accessing the IA JACEs. Schneider ditched the IA line that was JACE based as a response, abruptly, with very little notice. The dealers essentially said 'if we have to rip out the JACEs to do business under the Schneider brand, we have no reason to stay under the Schneider brand'. Schneider relented.
So do they WANT to support it? Apparently not. Will they? They seem to. I dunno. This is where my gossip trail ends. The $$ seems to keep them engaged.
It does surprise me after all that, to hear that their is any development on JACE anything from Schneider. That seems like a positive development for future support.
I will say that Schneider has a healthy online database for JACE stuff. Most of it seems to be R2 and AX stuff. But it is helpful. For what that is worth.

[Milkman Spawn]

When Niagara was born, it was some Schneider guys that left and made it. There was a lawsuit andschneider got rights to make their own JACEs, among other things. This is R2 stuff. Under AX, Schneider could and did enforce a brand lockout through the license. So only a licensed Schneider workbench could connect to their AX JACEs.
So from top to bottom, it operated like a locked down Schneider only product. Like Struxureware where a non-dealer could not touch it.
N4 ended the brand lockout, so it was not possible to prevent non IA dealers from accessing the IA JACEs. Schneider ditched the IA line that was JACE based as a response, abruptly, with very little notice. The dealers essentially said 'if we have to rip out the JACEs to do business under the Schneider brand, we have no reason to stay under the Schneider brand'. Schneider relented.
So do they WANT to support it? Apparently not. Will they? They seem to. I dunno. This is where my gossip trail ends. The $$ seems to keep them engaged.
It does surprise me after all that, to hear that their is any development on JACE anything from Schneider. That seems like a positive development for future support.
I will say that Schneider has a healthy online database for JACE stuff. Most of it seems to be R2 and AX stuff. But it is helpful. For what that is worth.

Interesting I've never heard this history before. Schneider was the only brand that locked out their Jaces? I thought there were others. I also didnt know that vendor lockout is no longer a thing in N4.

Theres a big boring BACnet book that talks about the history behind its development. I'd also love to see the boring history behind other aspects of our industry, like Niagara, but it seems like it's all word of mouth.

[numbawunfela]

Interesting I've never heard this history before. Schneider was the only brand that locked out their Jaces? I thought there were others.

I am pretty sure others did it, but I have not seen too many others. I have seen Schneider R2 JACEs locked out consistently. Not a single one I have come accross would talk to another brand of workbench.
My gossip comes from a Distech tech support guy who did gobs of Network8000, and Invensys work. So he was around when a lot of this was happening. And he likes to chat....

[Milkman Spawn]

I am pretty sure others did it, but I have not seen too many others. I have seen Schneider R2 JACEs locked out consistently. Not a single one I have come accross would talk to another brand of workbench.
My gossip comes from a Distech tech support guy who did gobs of Network8000, and Invensys work. So he was around when a lot of this was happening. And he likes to chat....

You CAN get a key to open the license up from Tridium if you have a letter from the customer expressing they are unsatisfied with their vendor. We did this at the casino with all the TAC stuff. It helped demystify the system a little bit, but we still didnt have any of the tools to work on the controllers.

[control$]

My gossip comes from a Distech tech support guy who did gobs of Network8000, and Invensys work. So he was around when a lot of this was happening. And he likes to chat....

An old Phillip H. Werner guy by chance? I was told Tridium was started by former Robershaw employee's.

[bigguy158]

An old Phillip H. Werner guy by chance? I was told Tridium was started by former Robershaw employee's.

This is also what I was told. But I’ve been following this thread so I looked it up, Tridium was started in 1995 per Wikipedia. Siebe bought Robert Shaw in 85 so the parent company they worked for would have been Siebe, even though they worked at a division of the company.

Siebe bought up Robert Shaw and barber Coleman and probably some others. Then became invensys around 1999. In 2013 Schneider bought Invensys. Schneider also bought TAC in 2003.

My understanding is the guys who dreamt up tridium brought their idea to corporate and the bosses said no. So they left.


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[numbawunfela]

I wonder how Wonderware fits into this? I never used it, but it seems like it was intended to do what Tridium does....

[numbawunfela]

An old Phillip H. Werner guy by chance?.

I dunno, I gotta go back and see what his name was. I may confirm by PM later.

[numbawunfela]

Siebe bought up Robert Shaw and barber Coleman and probably some others. Then became invensys around 1999. In 2013 Schneider bought Invensys. Schneider also bought TAC in 2003.

This mess is why it is hard for me to keep my Schneiders straight. Probably meant to say Barber Coleman.

[mlott132]

Yes there was a time there where the sign companies were loving us. Started out Robertshaw then Siebe then Invensys then Invensys2.0( had to remove the partial moon from logo) then TAC and finally Schneider Electric. It was fun trying to explain to our customers each time they got bought out. Wonderware was just another failed attempt to come up with a competitor to Niagara. That along with their other tries, Facility Integrator, Ultivist, and Wonderware did not last long at all. Seems like they are trying very hard to make SpaceLogix work. Does not seem to be going well if they have to keep renaming the product line.

[control$]

I wonder how Wonderware fits into this? I never used it, but it seems like it was intended to do what Tridium does....

I spent a week in Loves Park when Wonderware came out. Pretty cool sh1t I thought. Wanted to interface to some PLC's...never got the chance.

[theoldman]

Wonderware was an industrial front end before Niagara was ever developed. It was a company that Schneider bought long ago, when it was one of the previous names, Invensys I believe.

[pault]

When Niagara was born, it was some Schneider guys that left and made it. There was a lawsuit andschneider got rights to make their own JACEs, among other things. This is R2 stuff. Under AX, Schneider could and did enforce a brand lockout through the license. So only a licensed Schneider workbench could connect to their AX JACEs.

There was a lawsuit, but it wasn't Schneider at that time, it was Invensys (later bought by Schneider). Here is more info about it: https://insight.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/943532

Schneider is not the only OEM, who do brand lockout. It is still possible to do lockout in N4, so Schneider probably do it.

[bigguy158]

Looks like they resolved by December ‘01.

https://www.buildings.com/articles/3...unce-strategic

Richmond, Va., (December 4, 2001) - Invensys Building Systems - Americas, a leader in the automation and controls industry, and Tridium Inc., a leading provider of Internet-based control and automation infrastructure, today announce the formation of a long-term strategic relationship. The alliance allows Tridium’s universal software infrastructure - called Niagara Framework - to be used as part of Invensys’ North American Intelligent Automation I/A Series Building Management System Architecture.


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[control$]

Yes there was a time there where the sign companies were loving us. Started out Robertshaw then Siebe then Invensys then Invensys2.0( had to remove the partial moon from logo) then TAC and finally Schneider Electric. It was fun trying to explain to our customers each time they got bought out. Wonderware was just another failed attempt to come up with a competitor to Niagara. That along with their other tries, Facility Integrator, Ultivist, and Wonderware did not last long at all. Seems like they are trying very hard to make SpaceLogix work. Does not seem to be going well if they have to keep renaming the product line.

I remember a customer asking me "On the front of the service ticket it says Barber Colemen, A Siebe Company. On the back, Siebe..a Barber Coleman Company. Which is it?"

The Wonderware software was way to complicated for DDC. I understand they did make it simpler after I left.