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Thread: FIGURE OUT the Microns

  1. #21
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    On a decent nice warm(70*F) and above the evacuation process removes mostly NCG (Non Condensable Gases) (air) for the 1st 29 1/2" HG and then during the last 1/2 of the last " (29.5" down to zero microns) thats when the moisture is addressed.

    During the evac process there will not be any freon under the oil. Refrigerant under the oil in the comp crankcase will take place from migration and will happen only after the oil becomes FULLY SATURATED w/ freon.

    For educational purposes,if allowed, put your Micron Gauge at/near the Evac Pump while having a 2nd Micron Gauge hooked up at the evap/TXV/Equalizer Line connection and pull a vac and compare readings. Having 500 microns at the pump does not mean there is 500 micron at the evap.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadDaddy420 View Post
    I always have a micron in the middle of th pull.

    Eg. Pulling from suction and discharge headers and my micron guage is on the liquid header.

    A 17cfm duoseal on a 100+ hp rack with (3) 1/2"

    Couldn't get below 1500 microns after a conversion and had to get it going. Get some pressure in it and there's going to be a leak. Somewhere.

    And there was.

    1000 is leak free

    500 is moisture free

    Anything else below 500 is a bonus to be proud of.



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    You see I'll pull from one side or the other then measure on the opposite side I pull.
    The way you're doing it, you aren't reading the true vacuum of the system.
    If you can actually pull to 1500 reading on the opposite side, it's a sealed system.
    You don't squat with your spurs on.
    And you NEVER put the torches away before pressure testing.

  3. #23
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    Name:  tp h2otpsat.bmp
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    Need to have the water tp chart as much as a ref tp chart. Use for testing vacuum hold to tell if water in system or leak. Water will rise to saturation, leak will continue to rise.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechmanTerry View Post
    On a decent nice warm(70*F) and above the evacuation process removes mostly NCG (Non Condensable Gases) (air) for the 1st 29 1/2" HG and then during the last 1/2 of the last " (29.5" down to zero microns) thats when the moisture is addressed.

    During the evac process there will not be any freon under the oil. Refrigerant under the oil in the comp crankcase will take place from migration and will happen only after the oil becomes FULLY SATURATED w/ freon.
    Moisture is addressed in the entire evacuation.

    The speed of evacuation and depth with moisture in the system will determine if the moisture is fully removed or not.

    So given your 70F state.

    You would have to keep your vacuum above 18,000 microns to keep the moisture from freezing in the system.

    As at approx 18,000 microns at 70 water will freeze.

    So, IF there is moisture in the system and you pull down too quickly, below 18,000 in this case, it could turn to ice.

    Which is why a triple evac is so important.



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  6. #25
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    Boil not freeze.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadDaddy420 View Post
    Moisture is addressed in the entire evacuation.

    The speed of evacuation and depth with moisture in the system will determine if the moisture is fully removed or not.

    So given your 70F state.

    You would have to keep your vacuum above 18,000 microns to keep the moisture from freezing in the system.

    As at approx 18,000 microns at 70 water will freeze.

    So, IF there is moisture in the system and you pull down too quickly, below 18,000 in this case, it could turn to ice.

    Which is why a triple evac is so important.



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    I lug a toolbox around for a living. I get most of my info from "others". One of them others is Mr. Rob Yost , he was the Head Engineer of National Refrigerants. He told me that info, about the last 1/2 of the last inch.Now I might have misunderstood him,thats possible.

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restaurant mech View Post
    You see I'll pull from one side or the other then measure on the opposite side I pull.
    The way you're doing it, you aren't reading the true vacuum of the system.
    If you can actually pull to 1500 reading on the opposite side, it's a sealed system.
    When it's got 100hp worth of compressors, and you pull from suction and discharge, where would you put your guage?

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechmanTerry View Post
    I lug a toolbox around for a living. I get most of my info from "others". One of them others is Mr. Rob Yost , he was the Head Engineer of National Refrigerants. He told me that info, about the last 1/2 of the last inch.Now I might have misunderstood him,thats possible.
    Well, considering the information you gave US, and the charts and Info I have, seems I was off by a 1/2"hg form Mr. Yost's numbers. My absolute apologies. He must have had different charts than I.





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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadDaddy420 View Post
    When it's got 100hp worth of compressors, and you pull from suction and discharge, where would you put your guage?

    Sent from my remote link to R2D2 using Tapatalk
    I typically pull from suction and read discharge.
    That's really the only way to get ab accurate vacuum reading. And that's really why there is no quick way to pull a vacuum.
    If you're reading off what you are pulling you're only reading what the vacuum pump is doing.
    That's why I laugh at 5 minutes to 500 microns.
    Pull 500 microns and hold it for 24 hours. That's a real vacuum test. Until you've done that, you haven't really vacuumed a system
    You don't squat with your spurs on.
    And you NEVER put the torches away before pressure testing.

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restaurant mech View Post
    I typically pull from suction and read discharge.
    That's really the only way to get ab accurate vacuum reading. And that's really why there is no quick way to pull a vacuum.
    If you're reading off what you are pulling you're only reading what the vacuum pump is doing.
    That's why I laugh at 5 minutes to 500 microns.
    Pull 500 microns and hold it for 24 hours. That's a real vacuum test. Until you've done that, you haven't really vacuumed a system
    Wait a minute, do you even understand what I am pulling a vac on?

    And when you tell a grocery store "you won't have Refrigeration for 24hrs because we have to let the vacuum hold".

    Id have no business. So you learn to do it right.

    When I am pulling from the discharge and suction headers, the liquid header is "in between". So when I see 500micron there, I'm amazingly good.

    If I can't get below 1500, and I gotta gas the rack because it's been almost 4hrs and food is getting warm... I will always find a leak after getting gas in the system.

    Want my honest opinion for best vac?

    Big hoses and smallest pump that consistently drops microns.

    But we, as techs in the field and in a hurry seem to hover in th middle ground. "When I see xxxxmicrons, we are good"

    So, the "way I do it" works fine for what I do.

    Pulling from one side and guage on the other, I could see that without any TXV,s or solenoids in the system. (Did you know that a TXV closes completely when the system isn't running?... Don't believe me? Ask sporlan). But if you have valves and solenoids and etc in the system, pull from both sides. Check in between.









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  14. #31
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    Yes I definitely understand what you're pulling a vac on.
    I do it a couple times a month.....
    And to do it properly takes time.
    To do it with reading what the pump is doing doesn't.
    If my customer isn't willing to do it right, then I don't even bother with the vac guage.
    Because reading what the pump is doing is useless
    You don't squat with your spurs on.
    And you NEVER put the torches away before pressure testing.

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restaurant mech View Post
    Yes I definitely understand what you're pulling a vac on.
    I do it a couple times a month.....
    And to do it properly takes time.
    To do it with reading what the pump is doing doesn't.
    If my customer isn't willing to do it right, then I don't even bother with the vac guage.
    Because reading what the pump is doing is useless
    You don't read do you? I DONT PUT MY MICRON GUAGE AT THE PUMP. It's in the MIDDLE of the system.

    Geez.

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  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadDaddy420 View Post
    Wait a minute, do you even understand what I am pulling a vac on?

    And when you tell a grocery store "you won't have Refrigeration for 24hrs because we have to let the vacuum hold".

    Id have no business. So you learn to do it right.

    When I am pulling from the discharge and suction headers, the liquid header is "in between". So when I see 500micron there, I'm amazingly good.

    If I can't get below 1500, and I gotta gas the rack because it's been almost 4hrs and food is getting warm... I will always find a leak after getting gas in the system.

    Want my honest opinion for best vac?

    Big hoses and smallest pump that consistently drops microns.

    But we, as techs in the field and in a hurry seem to hover in th middle ground. "When I see xxxxmicrons, we are good"

    So, the "way I do it" works fine for what I do.

    Pulling from one side and guage on the other, I could see that without any TXV,s or solenoids in the system. (Did you know that a TXV closes completely when the system isn't running?... Don't believe me? Ask sporlan). But if you have valves and solenoids and etc in the system, pull from both sides. Check in between.









    Sent from my remote link to R2D2 using Tapatalk
    Txv and a solenoid.... hmm if I'm vacuuming a system it's got a magnet on the solenoid.
    And I'm reading the opposite side.
    You are definitely free to service as you see fit. But when I'm saying at 1500 I've got a tight system I'm not bullshitting. I've got an actual 1500 as opposed to what the pump is doing
    You don't squat with your spurs on.
    And you NEVER put the torches away before pressure testing.

  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restaurant mech View Post
    Txv and a solenoid.... hmm if I'm vacuuming a system it's got a magnet on the solenoid.
    And I'm reading the opposite side.
    You are definitely free to service as you see fit. But when I'm saying at 1500 I've got a tight system I'm not bullshitting. I've got an actual 1500 as opposed to what the pump is doing
    I'm done.

    I'd never be able to pull any kind of vacuum on a rack by just pulling on one side.

    And 5 mins to 500? You are going to make me buy a new micron gauge tomorrow to prove it can be done. A fractional HP system, easy.

    But you forget. There's more to Refrigeration than restaurants. There's a whole world out there your mind apparently cannot grasp.





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  18. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadDaddy420 View Post
    I'm done.

    I'd never be able to pull any kind of vacuum on a rack by just pulling on one side.

    And 5 mins to 500? You are going to make me buy a new micron gauge tomorrow to prove it can be done. A fractional HP system, easy.

    But you forget. There's more to Refrigeration than restaurants. There's a whole world out there your mind apparently cannot grasp.





    Sent from my remote link to R2D2 using Tapatalk
    You are letting an internet handle get the best of you. If I based my opinion of your work be based on the 420 aspect I'd assume you did no actual work.
    Don't make the mistake of assuming that my only experience is small reach in coolers.
    Frankly I've done ammonia curling rinks all the way to r111 systems running in a vacuum and everything in between.
    As stated if my customers don't want to pay for the time it takes to actually vacuum a system I don't bother with the vac guage.
    But those that do, get the real quality service that I offer.
    Nothing less Nothing more.
    I'm also not here to bash or degrade anyone. I'm offering free advice and insight. If anyone doesn't want that, then they are free to do as they please
    You don't squat with your spurs on.
    And you NEVER put the torches away before pressure testing.

  19. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restaurant mech View Post
    You are letting an internet handle get the best of you. If I based my opinion of your work be based on the 420 aspect I'd assume you did no actual work.
    Don't make the mistake of assuming that my only experience is small reach in coolers.
    Frankly I've done ammonia curling rinks all the way to r111 systems running in a vacuum and everything in between.
    As stated if my customers don't want to pay for the time it takes to actually vacuum a system I don't bother with the vac guage.
    But those that do, get the real quality service that I offer.
    Nothing less Nothing more.
    I'm also not here to bash or degrade anyone. I'm offering free advice and insight. If anyone doesn't want that, then they are free to do as they please
    So, since I have a particular number in my handle, nothing I say means anything, even though I can show where I got my information?

    So, My name is Christopher. does that make any difference?

    Does it make a difference that I own my house, truck, etc and I'm making payments and paying my vendors and suppliers?

    Does it make any difference that I own my own company and do work for major chains?

    Does it make any difference that you "have worked on"?... btw.. I have worked on ammonia, CO2, propane, butane, ultra low, convenience stores, wine cellars, chillers, cooling towers.... should I keep going?

    It's about the PROPER method.

    And as far as my "internet handle", go roll it and smoke it... that's called judgement based on what you see... not what you understand.

    you've already bashed me by even mentioning my "handle" vs the subject at hand... pulling a vacuum. So, if you cannot substantially invalidate what I am saying by other fact, STFU and let someone else learn.
    Last edited by BadDaddy420; 05-11-2021 at 11:51 PM.

    I can't fix it if it won't stay broke..

  20. #37
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    I think you all are doing it right and it must have been a long day or something. Go have a couple beers.

    Sent from the Okie state usin Tapatalk

  21. #38
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    Wow. All that over how to pull a vacuum.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

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  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    Test your pump.
    Take a recovery tank and hook up your vacuum rig and pump. Should hit500 within 15 minutes
    Did this when I first bought it, pulled to 500 and have only used it 7 times since.

  24. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksefan View Post
    If it is still under any pressure above atmospheric, moisture should not get in. Unless the leak is in the section of the system running in a vacuum.
    yes , it still had a minute of pressure.

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