President Biden is helping us make a fortune -

[Poodle Head Mikey]

President Biden Signs Executive Orders to Address Climate Change -

President Biden signed three executive orders aimed at tackling climate change,

Suspending new oil and gas leasing on federal land.
Addressing the disproportionate health and environmental impacts on communities of color. Unless they are pink.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is proposing rules to reduce the use of coolants from air conditioners and refrigerators that are potent greenhouse gases, fulfilling new mandates from Congress with regulations favored by large portions of U.S. industry, according to the agency.

The proposal would create a process for reducing the use of hydrofluorocarbons in cooling appliances, the first step toward meeting new mandates to cut their supply by 85% over 15 years, the EPA said. Congress passed that mandate in December in provisions included in a $2 trillion spending and Covid-19 aid package.

“EPA is taking a major action to help keep global temperature rise in check,” agency Administrator Michael Regan said in a statement, adding that the action will spur “manufacturing of new climate-safe products.”

The effort has bipartisan support and backing from the industry. The Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute, a trade group for equipment manufacturers, has said U.S. companies have spent billions of dollars developing alternative chemicals to sell globally, which would get a boost if the U.S. joins international efforts to eliminate hydrofluorocarbons, known as HFCs. The group says that most of the equipment sold in the US is made in the US.

How’s that sound to you all ? <g>

I guess they cut him off or something as he never got around to how the defenseless consumer is going to pay dearly to enrich everyone involved in this business of ours.

[Bombboy90]

President Biden Signs Executive Orders to Address Climate Change -

President Biden signed three executive orders aimed at tackling climate change,

Suspending new oil and gas leasing on federal land.
Addressing the disproportionate health and environmental impacts on communities of color. Unless they are pink.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is proposing rules to reduce the use of coolants from air conditioners and refrigerators that are potent greenhouse gases, fulfilling new mandates from Congress with regulations favored by large portions of U.S. industry, according to the agency.

The proposal would create a process for reducing the use of hydrofluorocarbons in cooling appliances, the first step toward meeting new mandates to cut their supply by 85% over 15 years, the EPA said. Congress passed that mandate in December in provisions included in a $2 trillion spending and Covid-19 aid package.

“EPA is taking a major action to help keep global temperature rise in check,” agency Administrator Michael Regan said in a statement, adding that the action will spur “manufacturing of new climate-safe products.”

The effort has bipartisan support and backing from the industry. The Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute, a trade group for equipment manufacturers, has said U.S. companies have spent billions of dollars developing alternative chemicals to sell globally, which would get a boost if the U.S. joins international efforts to eliminate hydrofluorocarbons, known as HFCs. The group says that most of the equipment sold in the US is made in the US.

How’s that sound to you all ? <g>

I guess they cut him off or something as he never got around to how the defenseless consumer is going to pay dearly to enrich everyone involved in this business of ours.

I saw an article about this yesterday. I guess I’m concerned with what new refrigerants they are planning on using in 15 years. The article I read claimed “natural refrigerants such as propane or ammonia”.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

For many years I have laughed at people in this business complaining about the high prices we have to pay for equipment, parts, refrigerants, and all the rest.

My response is: "I'm always glad that I don't have to pay for it - the customers pay for everything. I work on a percentage of costs - so the more things cost; the more money I make."

It's the customer's who should be complaining that their government is costing them more and more all the time.

It reminds me of a flower catalog. They arrive in the bleak midwinter and are filled with gorgeous pics of big, lush blooms and hearty plants. You sit inside by the fire and read and muse about your own garden - and you want them: all the lush healthy plants and flowers. You like roses and so you order some. What you ordered was the wonderful roses - what arrives in the spring is a bunch of muddy sticks.

And politics is exactly like that. The headline is about how The President Is Helping Us! But the reality is that his actions are additionally burdening the non-informed Consumers by taking even more of their money. And for dubious stated purposes and nefarious actual purposes. <g>

It's all just tools and techniques to me - I'll quickly learn what's required, acquire it, and charge the customer for it all. I'll be fine - it just seems so unsporting of the government in regard to the consumers.

PHM
-------

I saw an article about this yesterday. I guess I’m concerned with what new refrigerants they are planning on using in 15 years. The article I read claimed “natural refrigerants such as propane or ammonia”.

[ehsx]

"I'm always glad that I don't have to pay for it - the customers pay for everything. I work on a percentage of costs - so the more things cost; the more money I make."

Same goes for you the customer for everything else. Overall your standard of living and everyone else's goes down. Doesn't affect just one trade or industry.

[BNME8EZ]

As usual attack the end result not the cause.

the refrigerant is the cause/problem, it has to be or they would not keep trying to change it to something better. But wait it is really not the refrigerant itself only that it is released into the atmosphere, right. As long as it stays in the system or drum it is not an issue, as I see it. So the problem is really not the refrigerant but leaks.

I don't know that any studies have been done but my gut tells me that more refrigerant us used by the small leaks in the 5-25%/yr range than in catastrophic leaks where a line breaks and it leaks out in 24 hours or less. Naturally the larger commercial systems are going to be more critical on this than standard resi units but my assumption is most commercial leaks are going to get repaired where resi systems will get charged and continue to leak.

The point is if the focus is on the refrigerant the leaks never get fixed, where as if you focus on the leak it has to get fixed. I admit neither will be cheap for the end user but at least they won't be faced with mismatch components to deal with because of refrigerant change.

[jbhenergy]

As usual attack the end result not the cause.

the refrigerant is the cause/problem, it has to be or they would not keep trying to change it to something better. But wait it is really not the refrigerant itself only that it is released into the atmosphere, right. As long as it stays in the system or drum it is not an issue, as I see it. So the problem is really not the refrigerant but leaks.

I don't know that any studies have been done but my gut tells me that more refrigerant us used by the small leaks in the 5-25%/yr range than in catastrophic leaks where a line breaks and it leaks out in 24 hours or less. Naturally the larger commercial systems are going to be more critical on this than standard resi units but my assumption is most commercial leaks are going to get repaired where resi systems will get charged and continue to leak.

The point is if the focus is on the refrigerant the leaks never get fixed, where as if you focus on the leak it has to get fixed. I admit neither will be cheap for the end user but at least they won't be faced with mismatch components to deal with because of refrigerant change.

Yep. Said it all along, if they were really concerned, they would force the manu to make coils that dont leak after 5 years. Then we would only have to worry about the hacks that vent the stuff.

[Artrose]

This all got started nearly thirty years ago, and I'm still waiting for an explanation from the "experts", as to how all that ozone got destroyed over the south pole, when all the evil chemicals that they say caused the hole were released in the northern hemisphere.

This worldwide organized fraud has produced some very powerful, and extremely wealthy people.

[thatguy]

As usual attack the end result not the cause.

the refrigerant is the cause/problem, it has to be or they would not keep trying to change it to something better. But wait it is really not the refrigerant itself only that it is released into the atmosphere, right. As long as it stays in the system or drum it is not an issue, as I see it. So the problem is really not the refrigerant but leaks.

I don't know that any studies have been done but my gut tells me that more refrigerant us used by the small leaks in the 5-25%/yr range than in catastrophic leaks where a line breaks and it leaks out in 24 hours or less. Naturally the larger commercial systems are going to be more critical on this than standard resi units but my assumption is most commercial leaks are going to get repaired where resi systems will get charged and continue to leak.

The point is if the focus is on the refrigerant the leaks never get fixed, where as if you focus on the leak it has to get fixed. I admit neither will be cheap for the end user but at least they won't be faced with mismatch components to deal with because of refrigerant change.

This goes along with the argument of going away from ‘high efficiency at any cost’ and stepping back to focus on quality and durability. Those old units would last forever when built right. With the combination of the high pressures and thinner materials used to achieve high efficiency it’s not wonder the new stuff leaks more.

Maybe I’m just seeing a disproportionate amount of new equipment to old. I wasn’t working on the older stuff when it was around 30 years ago. I just see the stuff that survived. Perhaps the weak has now been weeded out and I’m just comparing today’s product to the strong that survived. I just get the feeling that’s not actually the case.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

The problems are the same.

What is being said 'works' - so there is no incentive to change a play that is still gaining yards.

And there is no financial gain to be had by working at refuting the highly questionable climate claims - so the countervailing power effort is feeble.

And so, as always; the politicians, and others who stand to gain, get the Glory and the citizens pay the Cost. <g>

The customer's blame us - when we are just the messengers - while being ignorant of the actual causes.

PHM
--------

This all got started nearly thirty years ago, and I'm still waiting for an explanation from the "experts", as to how all that ozone got destroyed over the south pole, when all the evil chemicals that they say caused the hole were released in the northern hemisphere.

This worldwide organized fraud has produced some very powerful, and extremely wealthy people.

[BNME8EZ]

This goes along with the argument of going away from ‘high efficiency at any cost’ and stepping back to focus on quality and durability. Those old units would last forever when built right. With the combination of the high pressures and thinner materials used to achieve high efficiency it’s not wonder the new stuff leaks more.

Maybe I’m just seeing a disproportionate amount of new equipment to old. I wasn’t working on the older stuff when it was around 30 years ago. I just see the stuff that survived. Perhaps the weak has now been weeded out and I’m just comparing today’s product to the strong that survived. I just get the feeling that’s not actually the case.

I have been in this field 40+ years. When I first started it was normal to run around and add juice to most systems. Sometimes you could find a leak, often times not. I think the stuff you are seeing are the ones that didn't leak so never got changed. I cut my teeth on Climatrol equipment. They had compression fittings and condenser and coil. I would swear that the ones outside would leak all winter when it got cold then seal when the temps warmed the coper/brass expanded again.

[jmac00]

Im glad Im retiring at the end of the summer. I have had enough of all the political and environmental BS.

I'll miss my customers, 80% of which have been with me for 15+ years, a dozen have been with me for over 20 years.

But, my body just can't take it anymore. Looking forward to just wondering around the country

[BNME8EZ]

Im glad Im retiring at the end of the summer. I have had enough of all the political and environmental BS.

I'll miss my customers, 80% of which have been with me for 15+ years, a dozen have been with me for over 20 years.

But, my body just can't take it anymore. Looking forward to just wondering around the country

Lucky you. I still have a few more years to go, not cause I want to just cause i have to. I'm not sure which will go first, mind or body.

[hvacker]

People that believe in MMCC also believe what ever it takes, just do it.
If the predictions are right, in the future they will have their image on statues in the parks.
If wrong it will be forgotten in time and efforts will be spent on some other catastrophe.

You can spend money running inefficient equipment or you can spend it on technology.
Either way you will spend the money.
Europeans (western) amaze me in the extent they will go to make something better. Squeeze another watt.
A difference in technology is it gets cheaper over time. I think it's a better investment overall.
It's also job security. Complicated stuff lessens DIY.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

That sums up my whole life pretty well: "wondering around the country" <g>

PHM
---------

Im glad Im retiring at the end of the summer. I have had enough of all the political and environmental BS.

I'll miss my customers, 80% of which have been with me for 15+ years, a dozen have been with me for over 20 years.

But, my body just can't take it anymore.

Looking forward to just wondering around the country

[jacob-k]

Biden

Trump

Global warming

Forest fires

Bark beetles

Covid

All making me rich....



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[AdrianOmarPerez]

Make R-11, R-502, R-12, R-22, and R-13 Great Again.


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[walterc]

I'm semi-retired right now and enjoying it again. Probably quit in 2- 3 years and start something else.

If you follow the money and the control, you'll see why they are doing what they are doing.
Why not profit from ignorance.

[AdrianOmarPerez]

If you’re a Centrifugal and/or Screw Chiller Tech, then R-11, R-12, and maybe R-22.
If you’re an Resi or LC Tech, then R-22.
If you’re a ComRef guy, the R-502, R-12, and maybe R-22.
Same for LC Refrig - maybe NOT R-22.
If you’re a Cascade Tech, then R-13 and R-502.
Domestic Refrig would be all R-12 and Absorption would be LiBr.
It would be a better place.


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[behappy]

Im glad Im retiring at the end of the summer. I have had enough of all the political and environmental BS.

I'll miss my customers, 80% of which have been with me for 15+ years, a dozen have been with me for over 20 years.

But, my body just can't take it anymore. Looking forward to just wondering around the country

I am in the exact same boat!
I will make a move like Walter and just slow down and enjoy life.

BTW sales have been very good this year until now.
People have received government money and think nothing of cost.

This state will end the federal unemployment windfall in June.
And of course all the same groups are screaming.....
There are "help wanted" signs out all over the place.
It will be interesting to see how all that falls out.

https://www.wjtv.com/news/local/gov-...efits-in-june/

[RandallJ.]

I really think it's both/and. The chlorine in the refrigerants damages the ozone because it doesnt wash out in rain. Is what they say. Unless every study is completely fabricated then I have no reason to think that isn't the case. And depsite the best efforts and intention of those dealing with the refrigerants there will always be leaks, line breaks etc. And always those who say f. It and vent.

So we have an infrastructure that's arguably not very sustainable for the environment that they helped create. Now they can just pull the same rug they helped put down out from underneath because it damages the ozone. The best kind of corruption really doesn't even have to lie because it can get so powerful to where it doesnt matter.

The thing I would think is being able to manufactire refrigerant that doesnt contribute to green house gases or damage the ozone, but is still reasonable enough to make in terms of cost. That will still employ people and leave the trade relatively unaffected aside from phase out.

What about HFOs?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoroolefin