Decisions on new central A/C

[idmd]

Hi everyone! I'm in the process of replacing an existing central A/C unit and I have had a few quotes and I'm looking for feedback.

House: I'm in central MA. House is a colonial that was built in 1987 with what I'd say is average build quality. Walls are 2x4 with fiberglass, we added 18" of blown-in cellulose in the attic a few years ago. Windows are about 10 years old and draft-free. Doors are original and relatively draft-free - I've added some additional weather stripping. The first two floors are serviced by a central A/C that was retrofitted in 1994 and they are 3006sqft. There is an area on the first floor with cathedral ceilings and three very large SW-facing skylights. There is 1000sqft of finished basement with no A/C service and it remains cool all summer but the door is often open. The majority of windows are on the front and back of the house and the house faces east, gets early morning sun, remains in the sun all day and the sun sets coming in through the windows in the back.

Current HVAC: Current heat is oil-burning boiler with baseboards with 5-zones - fairly new and does a good job. The A/C was installed in 1994 with the air handler in attic and the system is a 4-ton Rheem. Install is a lot of flex duct but seems relatively well-done and not too leaky with straight and well-thought-out runs to the second floor - not so much the first floor. There is a large return in the hallway, a smaller return in the master. All 4 bedrooms, both bathrooms, and a large walk-in closet have supply ducts. There are only three supply ducts running through second-floor closets to the first floor - one in the living room, one in the TV area and one in the kitchen - if you think of a colonial three sections (left of entrance, entrance, and right of entrance) all three areas receive a centrally located supply duct. We've had the current A/C services every year and so coils are clean, etc.

The system does the job. We usually set the thermostat at 68F and it can maintain this temp on the second floor until it's 90F outside. At that point by 93F outside, inside is at 70F and by 95F outside, it's at 73-74F inside. Believe it or not the first floor is usually only 1-2F warmer with just the three supply ducts and always comfortable. There is a 25,000 BTU Window style A/C built into the wall in the rearmost room with cathedral ceilings and the three W facing skylights. We only need this unit when it gets above 90F and only during the late afternoon and it cools the entire 1st floor well. From a comfort POV the current system works but it si 27 years old so looking to replace it.

First Contractor - Spent all of 15 mins at the house. He looked at the current 4-ton unit, asked if we were comfortable with the unit and recommended no changes other than new air handler, condenser and line set. His recommendation was:

Bryant® Preferred™ - 4 Ton 16 SEER Residential Air Conditioner Condensing Unit Model # 126BNA048000
Bryant® 4 Ton Residential Fan Coil High Efficiency Multipoise Air Handler Model # FX4DNF049L00

Second contractor - referred by a friend who is in construction and works with this company frequently - spent maybe 20 mins looking around and his recommendation was also 4-ton but also said I may want to go 3.5-ton (isn't it his job to tell which one?):

Bryant A/C Condensor: Legacy 116BNA048000
Bryant Air Handler: FX4DNF049LOO

This quote also came in at 2/3 the first quote and so I asked if it made sense to bump up to a variable speed AH and 2-stage condenser. He replied if wanted to do that then he recommends a Bosch heatpump because right now there is a rebate for $1000 per ton and because the units only come 1-2 and 3-5 ton I would qualify for a rebate based on the 5-ton making this system basically the same cost as what he quoted me - this was late Friday and so I'm still waiting on the quote.

Clearly, there are things that can be improved with the supply ducts, etc - this is not my dream home and I have no desire to right all the wrongs of this house - I just want to be comfortable in summer for the next 10-15 years while my kids are in school and then my wife and I are out of here.

Questions:

1. It seems like no one does a Manual J and I know without one it's impossible to know but does 4-ton based on my house description sound reasonable?

2. If I stayed with Bryant does it make more sense, I know there will be an increased cost to go variable speed AH and 2-stage condenser?

3. I know very little about Bosch - he said based on the discussion based on the need for 3.5 or 4 ton that because everything on Bosch is variable speed that would remedy the issue? It can act like both? Is Bosch a good brand?

4. I have a few more quotes coming up - keep looking?

Any guidance appreciated.

[dan sw fl]

Follow the
RESIDENTIAL HVAC DESIGN PROCESS
for definitive guidance.

Heat Pump could sized and controlled to operate down to ~ 30'F prior to
switchover to an Alternate heat source.

HDD65 6,603

[Bazooka Joe]

STANDARD CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONING/HEAT PUMP REBATES
Equipment Type Efficiency Requirements Rebate Amount1
Central Air Conditioning AHRI* SEER** ≥ 16, EER*** ≥ 13 $50 per ton
Central Heat Pump Refer to Heat Pump Qualified Products List at MassSave.com/HPQPL $250 per ton

Reading it a ducted Heat Pump meeting 16 SEEER and....9.5 HSPF and....be a AHRI rated system with a AHRI number qualifies. Contractor may or may not need to be on Massachusetts approved list to offer rebates.

The other amount your talking about sounds more for Mini Splits.

Check with your local utility company 1st to get the facts, or download the energy guidelines from your state.

[idmd]

STANDARD CENTRAL AIR CONDITIONING/HEAT PUMP REBATES
Equipment Type Efficiency Requirements Rebate Amount1
Central Air Conditioning AHRI* SEER** ≥ 16, EER*** ≥ 13 $50 per ton
Central Heat Pump Refer to Heat Pump Qualified Products List at MassSave.com/HPQPL $250 per ton

He did ask what type of heat I had and made the comment about the $1000 per ton after that - even though the oil boiler would be my primary heat source would I qualify for the $1250 per ton under the "Fuel Optimization Rebates" section?

[idmd]

Follow the
RESIDENTIAL HVAC DESIGN PROCESS
for definitive guidance.

Heat Pump could sized and controlled to operate down to ~ 30'F prior to
switchover to an Alternate heat source.

HDD65 6,603

Thank you!

[jacob-k]

Few places do load calcs, fewer people know how to do load calcs....I know how, have the software and still rarely do them when the customer says they are good with the performance of the current system...

Doesnt sound like you have told these contractors that you want more downstairs air? We are not mind readers!....If you did clearly tell them you want better air downstairs and you got ZERO explanation as to why they didn't address it then these guys don't know what they are doing. Theres no way I would ask about issues/be told about issues and not address them in some form.

Are you telling these guys you want to live in a meat warehouse? 78* is what we design for in summer, 68* is pretty damn cold and hard to achieve without proper planning. If someone is giving you the option to pick a 3 1/2 ton when you currently have a 4 ton my instincts say you didn't tell them you want to be 68* on the hottest days of the year.

Bosch, yes it variable. Personally, I wouldn't put it in my house. Not saying its bad as I don't have enough experience with them. But to me they are not tried and true like many other brands.

Sounds like downstairs ductwork is lacking. And maybe even the entire house. I would certainly use a air handler with an ECM blower. That blower has the ability to overcome more restrictions than PSC blowers which is likely what you currently have.

The second guy sounds like he is concerned about price. Either he doesn't know how to sell jobs, which I would also credit to a lack of experience. Or you indicated price was a big factor and so he adjusted his quotes to accommodate your limitations....

[Bazooka Joe]

He did ask what type of heat I had and made the comment about the $1000 per ton after that - even though the oil boiler would be my primary heat source would I qualify for the $1250 per ton under the "Fuel Optimization Rebates" section?

The 1st Bryant does not qualify for rebates as the AHRI web-site shows its 15.5 SEER check yourself AHRI number 9316489

The 2nd Bryant does qualify for rebates. AHRI numbers 9278448 if math was done correctly

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...znxCFNAi8fJHHj

There is also the Federal Tax Credit

https://www.energystar.gov/about/fed...ty_tax_credits

Then there this for each state rebates

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...iQc0GVu13UMfK_

The Bosch is manufacturered 100% in China, and exported here, has a Mitsubishi compressor thou and technology, not sure where the compressor and parts are manufacturered. Thinking their Air Handlers are made in Mexico by Nortek. Not 100% sure on that part thou. Not saying that’s a bad thing,.....

[idmd]

Few places do load calcs, fewer people know how to do load calcs....I know how, have the software and still rarely do them when the customer says they are good with the performance of the current system...

Doesnt sound like you have told these contractors that you want more downstairs air? We are not mind readers!....If you did clearly tell them you want better air downstairs and you got ZERO explanation as to why they didn't address it then these guys don't know what they are doing. Theres no way I would ask about issues/be told about issues and not address them in some form.

Are you telling these guys you want to live in a meat warehouse? 78* is what we design for in summer, 68* is pretty damn cold and hard to achieve without proper planning. If someone is giving you the option to pick a 3 1/2 ton when you currently have a 4 ton my instincts say you didn't tell them you want to be 68* on the hottest days of the year.

Bosch, yes it variable. Personally, I wouldn't put it in my house. Not saying its bad as I don't have enough experience with them. But to me they are not tried and true like many other brands.

Sounds like downstairs ductwork is lacking. And maybe even the entire house. I would certainly use a air handler with an ECM blower. That blower has the ability to overcome more restrictions than PSC blowers which is likely what you currently have.

The second guy sounds like he is concerned about price. Either he doesn't know how to sell jobs, which I would also credit to a lack of experience. Or you indicated price was a big factor and so he adjusted his quotes to accommodate your limitations....

Thanks for the input. I made it clear to both guys the current system cools fine and if it wasn't for it's 27 year old age I'd be happy keeping it. I know the first floor could use more supply ducts if we wanted to get rid of the additional 25,000 BTU unit but just not something I want to tackle and I have no problem using the 25,000 BTU unit on the first floor - it even has a remote so I don't have to get up. I also made it clear we set the thermostat at 68F.

The only thing discussed about the price was this is not my dream house - I don't need the Mercedes Benz 22-SEER but I also didn't want contractor grade. Most companies seem to have three tiers of equipment and I wanted a solid quote for mid-tier. It looks like the quotes use a 5-speed AH and a single-stage condenser. I just want to be sure for a thousand and change more I'm not giving up a significantly improved comfort with a true variable-speed AH and 2-stage condenser?

[idmd]

The 1st Bryant does not qualify for rebates as the AHRI web-site shows its 15.5 SEER check yourself AHRI number 9316489

The 2nd Bryant does qualify for rebates. AHRI numbers 9278448 if math was done correctly

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...znxCFNAi8fJHHj

There is also the Federal Tax Credit

https://www.energystar.gov/about/fed...ty_tax_credits

Thanks, I'm sorry, I was not at all clear and I still don't have the specifics but the second contractor mentioned a $1000 per ton rebate if I went with a Bosch heat pump.

[idmd]

The 1st Bryant does not qualify for rebates as the AHRI web-site shows its 15.5 SEER check yourself AHRI number 9316489

The 2nd Bryant does qualify for rebates. AHRI numbers 9278448 if math was done correctly

Thank you! Strike 2 for the first contractor - he's 33% more expensive for essentially the same (but lower SEER) equipment.

[pecmsg]

2 Stories

2 Systems

Both Heat Pumps!

BOSCH uses Mitsubishis inverter technology, Its proven.

[jacob-k]

2 Stories

2 Systems

Both Heat Pumps!

BOSCH uses Mitsubishis inverter technology, Its proven.

The technology is.....But not everybody that's using it

[Bazooka Joe]

Thanks, I'm sorry, I was not at all clear and I still don't have the specifics but the second contractor mentioned a $1000 per ton rebate if I went with a Bosch heat pump.

Could be? but not reading it if it’s a Ducted system, maybe it’s from Bosch? ask for details and proof first, may need to be a authorized trained Bosch dealer that can offer those rebates and not a run of the mill Contractor. Also looks like the Legacy line Bryant is the bare bone unit ( thinking made in Mexico ) as it doesn’t even have a louvered sheetmetal skin protection on the coil, like the Preferred. Thinking no pressure safety switches either. So that’s the entry level line that you mentioned not being to keen on. Need to check standard features also.

Got model numbers of the Bosch indoor and outdoor section? as I’m sure for that amount, the system needs to be a AHRI match. You can’t really go by ratings of outdoor unit only to get SEER, EER and in Heat Pump application the HSPF it’s a team effort of matching indoor section to outdoor unit that gives you those ratings, and they are not real world numbers. Outdoor sections say “up to “ a certain SEER

[Bazooka Joe]

Thank you! Strike 2 for the first contractor - he's 33% more expensive for essentially the same (but lower SEER) equipment.

One reason the Perferred line from Contractor #1 is more than the Legacy line from Contractor #2 is the Preferred has more standard features,

You also mention the 2nd Contractor works for another company or subcontracts, something to that effect, so his overhead could easily be lower, passing the savings onto you, also both should be giving you a one year labor warranty.

Compressor Single-stage scroll
Refrigerant Puron® refrigerant
Sound enhancements Compressor sound blanket
Protections High and low pressure switches; filter drier
Controls supported Bryant Housewise Wi-Fi thermostat and other Preferred series thermostats
Capacity 1.5-5 tons
AESTHETICS

Design DuraGuard Plus™ protection: heavy-gauge sheet metal construction; louvered steel coil guard; baked-on powder paint.

You don’t get the pressure safety switches, sound blanket and full wrap around louvered sheetmetal cover around coil. Mentions comes with a drier, probably field installed.

Those models are two different tier level lines. Evolution series being the highest tier line, ( more bells and whistles standard features, the nicer the nice, the higher the price lol )

[idmd]

2 Stories

2 Systems

Both Heat Pumps!

I get that this may be the "right way" to do it. I spent a fortune on a SEER-20 system with all new ductwork in my last house in CT because that was going to be the house I spent the next 30 years in. The system was ice cold, bone dry, my electric bill went to 1/3, and I enjoyed all its gloriousness for all of three years before life circumstances put me in central MA. It added ZERO value to the house. As I said, not the house of my dreams. We're here because we have three kids, the schools are good, the cost of living is low for MA, and when the kids are gone will we be gone too. I just want to be cool in the summer for the next 10-15 years.

[idmd]

Could be? but not reading it if it’s a Ducted system, maybe it’s from Bosch? ask for details and proof first, may need to be a authorized trained Bosch dealer that can offer those rebates and not a run of the mill Contractor. Also looks like the Legacy line Bryant is the bare bone unit ( thinking made in Mexico ) as it doesn’t even have a louvered sheetmetal skin protection on the coil, like the Preferred. Thinking no pressure safety switches either. So that’s the entry level line that you mentioned not being to keen on. Need to check standard features also.

Got model numbers of the Bosch indoor and outdoor section? as I’m sure for that amount, the system needs to be a AHRI match. You can’t really go by ratings of outdoor unit only to get SEER, EER and in Heat Pump application the HSPF it’s a team effort of matching indoor section to outdoor unit that gives you those ratings, and they are not real world numbers. Outdoor sections say “up to “ a certain SEER

Thanks for the feedback. I'm waiting on info on the Bosch heat pump - yes, it would be a ducted system. Contractor 2 said he just put two of them in the house he just built for himself so I'm hoping the information is accurate. Contractor 2, who mentioned the Bosch system, is a very large and very well-known HVAC-R company in the Worcester area. Lots of positive reviews and my buddy who referred me to them is head of maintenance for a company that runs group homes in the state - he oversees about 150 buildings statewide and they use this company for 95% of the work - they do hundreds of thousands of dollars of work every year for my buddy and he's out on the job sites with them. I know this guy very well and he's about as straight a shooter as there exists anymore. I will forward the info on the Bosche system as soon as I have it.

So I'm guessing I good target would be Preferred level Bryant equipment with a variable speed AH? How important is a 2-stage condenser in terms of performance and comfort?

Thanks again!

[idmd]

One reason the Perferred line from Contractor #1 is more than the Legacy line from Contractor #2 is the Preferred has more standard features,

You also mention the 2nd Contractor works for another company or subcontracts, something to that effect, so his overhead could easily be lower, passing the savings onto you, also both should be giving you a one year labor warranty.

Compressor Single-stage scroll
Refrigerant Puron® refrigerant
Sound enhancements Compressor sound blanket
Protections High and low pressure switches; filter drier
Controls supported Bryant Housewise Wi-Fi thermostat and other Preferred series thermostats
Capacity 1.5-5 tons
AESTHETICS

Design DuraGuard Plus™ protection: heavy-gauge sheet metal construction; louvered steel coil guard; baked-on powder paint.

You don’t get the pressure safety switches, sound blanket and full wrap around louvered sheetmetal cover around coil. Mentions comes with a drier, probably field installed.

Those models are two different tier level lines. Evolution series being the highest tier line, ( more bells and whistles standard features, the nicer the nice, the higher the price lol )

I'll try and keep price out as much as possible but all I can say is I have a family member in HVAC who does not live in the area and when I gave him the quote from contractor #1 he said he could get the equipment for 1/3 what contractor #1 wanted to change for the full install and he said it was, "Highway robbery", as it really is just a change out of the AH, line set and condenser - he knows my house. Even the area in the attic is huge and spacious and easy to get to and work in. I'll have him look at the cost of equipment from contractor #2 as well and compare.

[jacob-k]

I'll try and keep price out as much as possible but all I can say is I have a family member in HVAC who does not live in the area and when I gave him the quote from contractor #1 he said he could get the equipment for 1/3 what contractor #1 wanted to change for the full install and he said it was, "Highway robbery", as it really is just a change out of the AH, line set and condenser - he knows my house. Even the area in the attic is huge and spacious and easy to get to and work in. I'll have him look at the cost of equipment from contractor #2 as well and compare.

Rarely does the HVAC friend have a clue how to bid a job....

Theres this misconception that its equipment plus labor. No business can run on that.

theres probably 150 things that consist of running costs and have to be calculated into the quote.

Cell phones
dispatching software
gas
advertising
call tracking
website
SEO
Graphic designs
uniforms
Lots of insurances
taxes
employee benefits
Employee pay
Shop
rent

on and on and on....and on!

[idmd]

Rarely does the HVAC friend have a clue how to bid a job....

Theres this misconception that its equipment plus labor. No business can run on that.

theres probably 150 things that consist of running costs and have to be calculated into the quote.

Cell phones
dispatching software
gas
advertising
call tracking
website
SEO
Graphic designs
uniforms
Lots of insurances
taxes
employee benefits
Employee pay
Shop
rent

on and on and on....and on!

Sure, I own a business too but all this person did was look to see what it would cost him to acquire the equipment. He doesn't even get the higher volume preferred pricing. While all those things you listed are true, it's not my problem contractor #1 has excessive overhead for his business and wants to charge 33% more for the same job. If that's the reason for the difference then he needs to get his house in order but I have a feeling he was trying to run up the price because I live in a big house and there were two nice cars in front. Contractor #1 is charging 4x the cost of equipment for labor - a 1 day job and contractor #2 ~2x the cost of equipment. Both are offering 12 months guarantee.

[pecmsg]

I'll try and keep price out as much as possible but all I can say is I have a family member in HVAC who does not live in the area and when I gave him the quote from contractor #1 he said he could get the equipment for 1/3 what contractor #1 wanted to change for the full install and he said it was, "Highway robbery", as it really is just a change out of the AH, line set and condenser - he knows my house. Even the area in the attic is huge and spacious and easy to get to and work in. I'll have him look at the cost of equipment from contractor #2 as well and compare.

So here we go again..............Its the cost of doing business!

Whos going to install it, warranty it, fine tune it to your particular home?

Want cheap buy window units!