Some questions about converting an Intellipak to 407C.

[Shane Bird]

Hi,
With the rising cost of R22 I’ve been thinking about retrofit options. These intelipaks have CSHA 3-D scroll compressors. I’m wondering how difficult would it be to change the oil to POE on them? They have schrader ports or service valves for oil access but I was wondering if they have dip tubes so that the oil can be drained completely? Would appreciate any insight.

We had a customer request a conversion to R422D a while back and had some serious issues with oil return. I’m thinking that may have been because the oil was not converted to POE. I imagine with only one out of two compressors running on a circuit POE would be needed for oil return.


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[pecmsg]

Fix the leaks and stick with 22

[jayguy]

Fix the leaks and stick with 22

Yup.

[71CHOPS]

Danfoss does not recommend retrofit on the 3D scrolls.

[AdrianOmarPerez]

Make R22 Great Again.


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[Restaurant Mech]

Or forget the oil change and run mo99.
I've been running it for a few years now and it's been good zero issues, really close on capacity and no oil change

[CEAS-AC-TECH]

Rs44b when the cost of r22 is up. You nor the client will be unhappy. No drier, oil, or metering device change needed.

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[Shane Bird]

Or forget the oil change and run mo99.
I've been running it for a few years now and it's been good zero issues, really close on capacity and no oil change

Looking at some of the refrigerant properties it looks like mo99 is the best, no oil change, replacement. But chemours does recommend changing the oil in certain situations. I’d want to change the oil on these Intellipaks since they can have impaired oil return during low load.


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[Shane Bird]

Rs44b when the cost of r22 is up. You nor the client will be unhappy. No drier, oil, or metering device change needed.

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I’ll have to look into that one, out of all the others I’ve compared MO99 looks like the best. I don’t trust not changing the oil on these systems so I figured I’d go with 407C since I’d be changing the oil and 407C looks like the best option in that situation.


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[BALloyd]

Looking at some of the refrigerant properties it looks like mo99 is the best, no oil change, replacement. But chemours does recommend changing the oil in certain situations. I’d want to change the oil on these Intellipaks since they can have impaired oil return during low load.


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You need to pay attention to some of the first few comments. There is some documentation where Trane does not recommend retrofits from R22 due to incidents of compressor failure with their compressors.

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[Shane Bird]

You need to pay attention to some of the first few comments. There is some documentation where Trane does not recommend retrofits from R22 due to incidents of compressor failure with their compressors.

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I understand, that’s something that I’ll be looking into and taking into consideration. I have seen Trane advertisements for a 407C intellipak conversion though. I’d definitely read any documentation and I plan on being very cautious.


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[CEAS-AC-TECH]

You need to pay attention to some of the first few comments. There is some documentation where Trane does not recommend retrofits from R22 due to incidents of compressor failure with their compressors.

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Trane does not use rs44b either. The rest including 407c are garbage. Thats a fact. Lennox has tested rs44b and found it to be just like r22. We have all had this conversation. We all know trane wants to be proprietary, so...

I encourage anyone to test rs44b out vs 407c. You'd find rs44b to be superior to al else but r22.

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[71CHOPS]

I understand, that’s something that I’ll be looking into and taking into consideration. I have seen Trane advertisements for a 407C intellipak conversion though. I’d definitely read any documentation and I plan on being very cautious.


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Better put some wording in your quote that clears you of responsibility for any failed components after the conversion.

[Shane Bird]

Better put some wording in your quote that clears you of responsibility for any failed components after the conversion.

I think that’d be a good idea. Do you happen to have any literature warning against conversion. I know the MO99 literature requires an oil conversion with 3-D scrolls because they draw oil from the bottom of the compressor and with the poor miscibility of retrofit refrigerants that can lead to liquid refrigerant being drawn up instead of oil.


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[pecmsg]

I think that’d be a good idea. Do you happen to have any literature warning against conversion. I know the MO99 literature requires an oil conversion with 3-D scrolls because they draw oil from the bottom of the compressor and with the poor miscibility of retrofit refrigerants that can lead to liquid refrigerant being drawn up instead of oil.


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We will not be responsible for any damages to equipment due to your insistence to convert to a nonmanufacturer approved alternative refrigerant! This unit was designed and tested for use of R-22 only.

[BALloyd]

Trane does not use rs44b either. The rest including 407c are garbage. Thats a fact. Lennox has tested rs44b and found it to be just like r22. We have all had this conversation. We all know trane wants to be proprietary, so...

I encourage anyone to test rs44b out vs 407c. You'd find rs44b to be superior to al else but r22.

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If you want to experiment knock yourself out.

Pretty sure no one commenting in this thread cares either way about the conversion just because it is a Trane. It was more advice for fellow techs.

If it works great.

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[jayguy]

If your customer wants to just leak cheaper refrigerant, then go for it. 1 compressor failure will wipe out any refrigerant cost savings. If they want to save money, fix the leaks, clean the coils (all of them) and maintain it properly.

[7point62]

Several years ago Trane had an Intellipak refresh, R'newal program for converting the Intellipak I from R-22 to R-407c. As long as said unit has the CSHA compressors post 1996 and not the original CSHS 3-d scrolls. It needed an oil flush during replacement and only a certain percentage of mineral/POE mix allowed verified by lab testing, use of a refractometer, only a certain percentage of the original R-22 charge, new labels, pressure switches, schrader cores etc, etc. Trane is going to want to do all that themselves. I don't see the value (only liability) in doing that work yourself, personally. Like Jay said, fix it and maintain it.

[Shane Bird]

Several years ago Trane had an Intellipak refresh, R'newal program for converting the Intellipak I from R-22 to R-407c. As long as said unit has the CSHA compressors post 1996 and not the original CSHS 3-d scrolls. It needed an oil flush during replacement and only a certain percentage of mineral/POE mix allowed verified by lab testing, use of a refractometer, only a certain percentage of the original R-22 charge, new labels, pressure switches, schrader cores etc, etc. Trane is going to want to do all that themselves. I don't see the value (only liability) in doing that work yourself, personally. Like Jay said, fix it and maintain it.

Sounds reasonable.


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[BBeerme]

I probably have the documentation somewhere, just don't have the time right now. Both Trane and ICOR stated absolutely do not use the 422 in a 3-D. I think the only approved conversions are with 407c, but they do have disclaimers. The first disclaimer goes something like: If you really have to convert or 22 is not available, then . . .

Even on an Intellipac, we only use the original refrigerant.

Spend the time with a quality leak checker. Do a pressure test with nitro observing the changes in temp. Pull a deep vacuum and be sure it holds.

I think that’d be a good idea. Do you happen to have any literature warning against conversion. I know the MO99 literature requires an oil conversion with 3-D scrolls because they draw oil from the bottom of the compressor and with the poor miscibility of retrofit refrigerants that can lead to liquid refrigerant being drawn up instead of oil.


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