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Thread: How do you think manufacturers are going to handle the lack of techs coming in

  1. #21
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  2. #22
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    I had some interaction with a thriving Whirlpool appliance technician of 5 years. He said he was the 4th one out for a refrigerator with an iced-up evaporator. He was going to replace another thermistor, I believe, and couldn't describe what "Adaptive" defrost means. So whatever Whirlpool's teaching their factory techs doesn't appear to include important fundamentals. I'd like to see more industry support for community college programs overseen by competent engineers and transparent, peer-reviewed approval of academic curricula. Anything else is likely to get hijacked by industry needing trained monkeys who can only follow established procedures.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmst View Post
    I had some interaction with a thriving Whirlpool appliance technician of 5 years. He said he was the 4th one out for a refrigerator with an iced-up evaporator. He was going to replace another thermistor, I believe, and couldn't describe what "Adaptive" defrost means. So whatever Whirlpool's teaching their factory techs doesn't appear to include important fundamentals. I'd like to see more industry support for community college programs overseen by competent engineers and transparent, peer-reviewed approval of academic curricula. Anything else is likely to get hijacked by industry needing trained monkeys who can only follow established procedures.
    Not every factory tech has been to a factory school. I've seen one tech sent to a multi-day factory class and be expected to teach what he learned to his coworkers in a 30 minute meeting. I've seen new equipment sent to the field before any classes are available. In fact, that was the norm, as what was learned in the rollout made up a significant portion of the class, when it did become available.
    In honor of RichardL: "Ain't 'None' of us as smart as 'All' of us".

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmst View Post
    I think the current mechanical compression principle is basically quite elegant. Are you thinking that some new scientific principle will come along and replace it? Like, perhaps, some quantum-radiative molecular cooling whereby lasers are used to expel heat from air?
    No not that exotic, thinking in the line of thermoelectric or something like that, Ill be long dead by then thou...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    No not that exotic, thinking in the line of thermoelectric or something like that, I’ll be long dead by then thou...
    It's easy to conceive that some new thermoelectric cooling application might occur to someone. I was recently delving into inductive resistance and couldn't help but feel that electricity still has some unappreciated nooks and crannies, at least, if not gaping chasms and misconceptions.

  7. #26
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    Thats an interesting question thats worth conversation
    Here is a link

    https://www.ashrae.org/file%20librar...am-goetler.pdf

    And some summery options

    Magnetocaloric. Some paramagnetic materials exhibit reversible temperature change under a changing mag- netic field. Technology based on this magnetocaloric effect is in the prototype development stage for HVAC applications, although some manufacturers are attempt- ing to commercialize magnetocaloric refrigeration within the next few years. The volatile nature of the global supply for rare-earth magnets, however, is a potentially signifi- cant barrier to market adoption.

    Thermoelectric. These materials generate a tempera- ture difference that can provide space conditioning under an applied voltage.

    Thermotunneling. Thermotunneling is a thermoelec- tric technology that transmits electrons across a nano- meter-scale vacuum via quantum tunneling to produce cooling or heating. This technology is in the early stages of research and development (R&D), and the authors were unable to identify any prototypes or demonstrations beyond basic materials research.

    Thermoacoustic. A thermoacoustic heat pump oscillates a helium-based working fluid using high- amplitude sound waves to generate a temperature gradient as the sound waves compress and expand the gas. Researchers have developed several prototypes for refrigeration applications, but the authors were unable to identify any thermoacoustic prototypes for HVAC applications.

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmst View Post
    I had some interaction with a thriving Whirlpool appliance technician of 5 years. He said he was the 4th one out for a refrigerator with an iced-up evaporator. He was going to replace another thermistor, I believe, and couldn't describe what "Adaptive" defrost means. So whatever Whirlpool's teaching their factory techs doesn't appear to include important fundamentals. I'd like to see more industry support for community college programs overseen by competent engineers and transparent, peer-reviewed approval of academic curricula. Anything else is likely to get hijacked by industry needing trained monkeys who can only follow established procedures.
    Yeah my understanding of the PT relationship and super heat and subcooling put me so far ahead of fellow appliance repairman that they don't have a clue what I am talking about.
    I hope the right to repair movement will have some victories over the appliance industry so that manufacturers will be forced to share service information.
    Sent from the Okie state usin Tapatalk

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swf View Post
    Thats an interesting question thats worth conversation
    Here is a link

    https://www.ashrae.org/file%20librar...am-goetler.pdf

    And some summery options

    Magnetocaloric. Some paramagnetic materials exhibit reversible temperature change under a changing mag- netic field. Technology based on this magnetocaloric effect is in the prototype development stage for HVAC applications, although some manufacturers are attempt- ing to commercialize magnetocaloric refrigeration within the next few years. The volatile nature of the global supply for rare-earth magnets, however, is a potentially signifi- cant barrier to market adoption.

    Thermoelectric. These materials generate a tempera- ture difference that can provide space conditioning under an applied voltage.

    Thermotunneling. Thermotunneling is a thermoelec- tric technology that transmits electrons across a nano- meter-scale vacuum via quantum tunneling to produce cooling or heating. This technology is in the early stages of research and development (R&D), and the authors were unable to identify any prototypes or demonstrations beyond basic materials research.

    Thermoacoustic. A thermoacoustic heat pump oscillates a helium-based working fluid using high- amplitude sound waves to generate a temperature gradient as the sound waves compress and expand the gas. Researchers have developed several prototypes for refrigeration applications, but the authors were unable to identify any thermoacoustic prototypes for HVAC applications.
    A friend of mine works at a Research Center for a major HVAC manufacturer, and they brought in a standard soda machine, ( some 6’ tall 4’ wide and 4’ deep give or take ) thinking easily 10+ years ago, ( I actually seen it, as I was involved with removing the vapor compressor parts ) and they installed the thermoelectric technology and filled the machine with soda. The idea worked. It’s not a new technology as they have them on much smaller soda dispenser and other application. Only thing is that it seems to work on medium temperature refrigerator part, I’m sure they can use it for high temperature A/C at some point. Heating part is a different story. I guess the idea did not catch on as I don’t believe they make a soda machine the size mentioned, but it proved the point that it could be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    A friend of mine works at a Research Center for a major HVAC manufacturer, and they brought in a standard soda machine, ( some 6 tall 4 wide and 4 deep give or take ) years ago, ( I actually seen it, as I was removing the vapor compressor parts ) and they installed the thermoelectric technology and filled the machine with soda. The idea worked. Its not a new technology as they have them on much smaller soda dispenser and other application. Only thing is that it seems to work on medium temperature refrigerator part, Im sure they can use it for high temperature A/C at some point. Heating part is a different story. I guess the idea did not catch on as I dont believe they make a soda machine the size mentioned, but it proved the point that it could be done.
    Isn't the best thermoelectric cooling tens of times less efficient than compression refrigeration?

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by R600a View Post
    Isn't the best thermoelectric cooling tens of times less efficient than compression refrigeration?

    Sent from the Okie state usin Tapatalk
    IDK,...I’m not a engineer or what not. That’s above my pay grade,.. I’m a Mr. Fix it man

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  15. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    IDK,...Im not a engineer or what not. Thats above my pay grade,.. Im a Mr. Fix it man
    I found some numbers.
    From wikipedia
    "In refrigeration applications, thermoelectric junctions have about 1/4 the efficiency (COP) compared to conventional (vapor compression refrigeration) means: they offer around 1015% efficiency of the ideal Carnot cycle refrigerator, compared with 4060% achieved by conventional compression-cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using compression/expansion).[11]"

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  16. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by R600a View Post
    I found some numbers.
    From wikipedia
    "In refrigeration applications, thermoelectric junctions have about 1/4 the efficiency (COP) compared to conventional (vapor compression refrigeration) means: they offer around 10–15% efficiency of the ideal Carnot cycle refrigerator, compared with 40–60% achieved by conventional compression-cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using compression/expansion).[11]"

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    I guess that’s at least one reason why that standard size soda dispenser that they where experimenting on does not use that technology...they did prove they could do it thou on a larger scale, albeit not efficiently? I was never privy with the final outcome.

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  18. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    I guess thats at least one reason why that standard size soda dispenser that they where experimenting on does not use that technology...they did prove they could do it thou on a larger scale, albeit not efficiently? I was never privy with the final outcome.
    If I understand correctly some of the Mars rovers use that technology in reverse to harness the power from the nuclear reactor to power their electronics. It's just a peltier generator instead of a peltier cooler. They used it because it is incredibly durable.

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  20. #34
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    To answer the original question I think they will capitalize on the fact that people can't get things fixed and can't get them installed correctly so they don't last as long and they will sell a lot more replacements.
    In fact I don't think this is really something of the future it's more right now. Just from watching the aop threads and seeing how many people seem to think that a unit that is less than 15 years old is old it makes me sad.

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  21. #35
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    And out of the pills?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epnqisvSCwo


    PHM
    --------



    Quote Originally Posted by lankford View Post
    . . . . (I've) had my nose to the grindstone . . .
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

  22. #36
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    OH!!! I sure screwed that up! <g>

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7XSahZz5js



    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    And out of the pills?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epnqisvSCwo


    PHM
    --------
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

  23. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by R600a View Post
    To answer the original question I think they will capitalize on the fact that people can't get things fixed and can't get them installed correctly so they don't last as long and they will sell a lot more replacements.
    In fact I don't think this is really something of the future it's more right now. Just from watching the aop threads and seeing how many people seem to think that a unit that is less than 15 years old is old it makes me sad.

    Sent from the Okie state usin Tapatalk
    Planned obsolescence. Put a 10 year warranty on it and make the parts so expensive it is most cost effective to replace than repair once the warranty is gone. Then build it just heavy enough to make warranty.

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  25. #38
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    Just observations:

    Compare the current microprocessor units to prior electric mechanical. At least 80% of service diagnostics is now done for the tech. Current tech school grads are looking for journeyman pay without a grasp of service requirements and principals. Log sheets seem to be a thing of the past, gauge & controller printouts are incomplete and techs don't know how to analyze the listed readings. >80% of testco printouts I reviewed last year indicated system deficiencies that were not addressed, remainder did not have the additional information required to make a determination.

    Marketing drives product features and service voice has only a fraction of the impact on new product, yet has the greatest impact on future sales.

    Mfg will make more money with parts changers working on products and warranty expenses will drive product cost up.

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  27. #39
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    Put a 10 year warranty on it and make the parts so expensive it is most cost effective to replace than repair once the warranty is gone. Then build it just heavy enough to make warranty.

    As a tongue and cheek joke here, but...it has some merit I suppose is buy a spare outdoor unit online, such as a example if your going with the Bosch BOVA, as those are sold online, thinking they are tax free if you reside in another state where the online company is located, delivered to your residence via forklift service at a decent enough price. The circuit board(s) look massive, looks to take the whole inside of the electrical compartment. Thinking that part alone to replace will cost more ( figure in diagnosis charge, part, labor and labor and parts tax ) once warranty expires, than what you pay for the NOS unit..or close to it.. Might as well remove complete outdoor unit or scavenger from that 10 year old NOS unit, sitting in the corner collecting dust or if the compressor goes in later warranty or especially out of warranty, might as well replace the whole unit with that brand new ( no manufacturers warranty NOS unit )

    May be a good idea if selling house down the road years from now, to replace that old somewhat functioning unit with that NOS outdoor unit to existing indoor section ( which is away from the elements and should still be in decent overall condition ) as a selling point,....

  28. #40
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    One thought is that enough older experienced corporate guys have probably died off by this time that the idea of factory service groups being a profit center may occur to the younger guys as being readily viable. <g>

    PHM
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    Quote Originally Posted by lankford View Post
    Will they start using more technology to compensate like they have been, or will they start to make systems simpler?
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

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