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Thread: I mixed refrigerants. R22 and 407C. And ran the system for a day.

  1. #81
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    In reality it's not the venters who are the problem. It's the manufacturers who build systems that dump millions of lbs of refrigerant into the atmosphere when a line cracks or a cap tubes rub through. And all the evaporator leaks.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB Cool View Post
    In reality it's not the venters who are the problem. It's the manufacturers who build systems that dump millions of lbs of refrigerant into the atmosphere when a line cracks or a cap tubes rub through. And all the evaporator leaks.
    There building them like that too reach the insane energy regulations.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    There building them like that too reach the insane energy regulations.

    And the intense price competition does not help much.

    However...

    IMO... Americans have lots their understanding of quality... they seem only focused on price.
    We need to figure out how to turn that around.

    Last week, I went to the house of a retired outside rep for one of the majors (no names)...
    He had an off brand piece of junk system... that was just out of warranty... with a MC (micro channel) coil... and the coil leaked.
    I quoted him on a new system... he started arguing with me on a bunch of trivial stuff...
    So I suggested he do some research and decide if his goal was price or quality...
    And left it with him.

    One would think... that a person who used to be an outside rep for one of the majors (residential equipment)... would know better than to chase price ONLY... it appears not.
    And no... it is not a $$$ thing... they spend lots of $$$ on things like season tickets to the baseball and football teams.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    And the intense price competition does not help much.

    However...

    IMO... Americans have lots their understanding of quality... they seem only focused on price.
    We need to figure out how to turn that around.

    Last week, I went to the house of a retired outside rep for one of the majors (no names)...
    He had an off brand piece of junk system... that was just out of warranty... with a MC (micro channel) coil... and the coil leaked.
    I quoted him on a new system... he started arguing with me on a bunch of trivial stuff...
    So I suggested he do some research and decide if his goal was price or quality...
    And left it with him.

    One would think... that a person who used to be an outside rep for one of the majors (residential equipment)... would know better than to chase price ONLY... it appears not.
    And no... it is not a $$$ thing... they spend lots of $$$ on things like season tickets to the baseball and football teams.
    Sales guys don't think much further than their next pay check.
    In mfg mtgs they argued price, price, price. Only mentioned quality when it affected their sales.

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  6. #85
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    I've thought at times what would happen if some small company actually built extremely high quality a/c equipment...price be damned.
    Equipment that lasts for years, is easy to service,engineered for performance, and no franchises to hacks.
    Then it came to me...that's already being done. I think they call em Weatherkings...

    communism is a cancer to be removed...

    COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK.
    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, And to the Republic For which it stands, One nation under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For all.
    The five freedoms it protects: speeches, religion, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government. Together, these five guaranteed freedoms make the people of the United States of America...Oh,it just slipped my mind...THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

  7. #86
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    I asked in a thread a while back if mixing R407c with R22 is illegal or just bad practice so this thread is kind of interesting to me.
    If I remember correctly, the only definite conclusion we came to is that it was against code to mix refrigerants that were not approved by the equipment manufacturer.
    There always the issue is what do you do with the mixed gas if you have to recover it but aside from that, what is the harm?
    I have never knowingly mixed refrigerants mainly because of the fear of liability along with the fact that I still have a few cans of R22 left in stock.
    It has nothing to do with it not working because I would have absolutely no problem mixing it in my own system. I just won't do it for a customer.
    That being said, I would say that more than 50% of the guys i know mix R407c with R22 on a regular basis with no apparent issues.
    We all know there are unknowns when you mix refrigerants but that doesn't mean it won't work or that it will damage the equipment either.
    In most cases if you're mixing refrigerant, you're dealing with an old system where replacement can also be a practical option.
    I used to condemn guys for mixing but now I just say that if they're willing to take on the risk then more power to them.
    They just might be helping their customers get through a tough financial time when I wouldn't because of the fear of liability.
    Gary
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    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  8. #87
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    God forbid you need to use a PT chart

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  10. #88
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    What is the temp.of 407c@69psig?

    communism is a cancer to be removed...

    COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK.
    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, And to the Republic For which it stands, One nation under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For all.
    The five freedoms it protects: speeches, religion, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government. Together, these five guaranteed freedoms make the people of the United States of America...Oh,it just slipped my mind...THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

  11. #89
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    Hold on....I can't find my PT chart for 57 percent R407C / 43 percent R22.

    The PT chart for 39 percent R407C / 61 percent R22 is on my desk though....is that one good enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fla.HP View Post
    What is the temp.of 407c@69psig?

    communism is a cancer to be removed...
    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

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  13. #90
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    Yea...

    communism is a cancer to be removed...

    COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK.
    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, And to the Republic For which it stands, One nation under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For all.
    The five freedoms it protects: speeches, religion, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government. Together, these five guaranteed freedoms make the people of the United States of America...Oh,it just slipped my mind...THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

  14. #91
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    Don't forget to add the glide factor 😉

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  16. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTP99 View Post
    Don't forget to add the glide factor
    Now you are just complicating everything.....

    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

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  18. #93
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    Ohhh.... it's only a 8 glide 😲

  19. #94
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    Ohhh wait !
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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  21. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    There building them like that too reach the insane energy regulations.
    Amazing how some units will develop tube-sheet leaks on the condenser. And others in the same lineup and brand won't. Is that a QC issue at the factory level or maybe a shipping and handling issue? Like being overstacked? Anyways i wonder if they would make a better product that don't leak if the EPA started leveling fines on the manufacturers. Or will they hurry up and switch to a environmentally friendly refrigerant and continue building junk that leaks?

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  23. #96
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    I'm not saying there isn't any guesswork involved in mixing R407c & R22 but only that it can work good enough to get through a season or two.
    That's all a lot of people want. All the guys I know that are mixing refrigerants say they haven't had any problems.
    We're only looking mainly at coils running about 38 to 50 so SH is only going to be few degrees different between refrigerants.
    The head pressure can run a little higher but it shouldn't be much of a problem either.
    The same type of thing was said about mismatching HP outside units on split systems.
    I've had a lot of mismatched HP condensers outlast the original matched condensers with both using the original AH.
    It may not be book approved but it works. I'm not recommending mixing gases but I'm only saying that just because it ain't right doesn't mean it won't work or that it's going to cause any damage.
    Gary
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    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  24. #97
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    Gary, the problem is when you "just get em running" you, as one mech. set a bar to the rest of the younger techs that is very low...dumbing down comes to mind...

    communism is a cancer to be removed...

    COMMUNISM DOESN'T WORK.
    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, And to the Republic For which it stands, One nation under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For all.
    The five freedoms it protects: speeches, religion, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government. Together, these five guaranteed freedoms make the people of the United States of America...Oh,it just slipped my mind...THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

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  26. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fla.HP View Post
    Gary, the problem is when you "just get em running" you, as one mech. set a bar to the rest of the younger techs that is very low...dumbing down comes to mind...

    communism is a cancer to be removed...
    I've never mixed refrigerants but if somebody else wants to do it, I'm not putting them down for doing so.
    I don't know if their reasoning is ethical or not, out of knowledge, experience or ignorance.
    There are a lot of techs who only use OEM parts. Some would argue that it sets the bar high for younger techs & others would argue that it sets the bar low.
    I like doing things unconventionally as long as it works. I think we all agree mixing refrigerants is not good practice but maybe there are times when it could be practical to do it.
    The key is knowing what you're doing & weighing the positives & negatives of doing something that goes against what is considered the norm.
    I don't know enough about mixing gases to feel comfortable doing it but if someone else does then I hope it works for them.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.

  27. #99
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    Your drone ever catch any boobies?


    Quote Originally Posted by samgevas View Post
    I've made mistakes. Worse part is my wife was there for both of them...

    When I first heard about the fines for venting and the rewards for turning people in, I had a brief vision of making a living driving around town looking for Chuck in a truck. I'd follow him to the job then send up a drone and film him all spy. A soon as it was obviously not a refer call I'd move on. Young Sam figured at $10,000 a pop; I only needed one per month.

    Alas, the reward is only for if your testimony or evidence "leads to the conviction," of the villainous venter. Hard to contribute to a conviction of a crime that has never been charged in the entire tenure of the law...
    Now the use of spy drone has been relegated to earning me multi-thousand-dollar fines and registration on some list...
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  28. #100
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    No city, customer, or service company name, I had a customer with a pretty large maintenance staff tell me the OTHER company techs (3 of them)
    told them that there R22 rack system circuits could be topped off with 407C. Why do you think I was called?
    Fortunately at this point I was only dealing with 1 circuit, they had conducted their "experiment" on.
    My call was that this system would run for awhile and every other day of so, they has to add gas again.
    When I checked it out, initially (not knowing yet of this mixing joke) the sight glass was bubbly, so, I ran a full system leak test, as I was wrapping up my leak test Paul,
    the senior engineer and I were talking, and he told me about how the system had been "topped-off" with 407C, because they said it was just fine to do so.
    At that point I froze, then when my blood pressure settled I lost it! I ran the unit again to re-diagnose the (low charge) assessment.
    From the behavior I witnessed, the high mixture of 407C was not carrying the oil correctly, and the TXV was bouncing back and forth until the oil slugs pushing out of the evaporator tail piece.
    I told Paul to give me HIS recovery jug to put there lame experiment into, because United told me they assess fines for mixed jugs, and they also told me I returned full recovery jugs more then any other tech in their branch. This was the first system I used 422D on, my go to gas for 22 replacements since.

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