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Thread: Electrify Everything

  1. #81
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    Personally I think before shoving solar this and wind that down everyone’s throat and force heat pumps in every home, we should focus our time and energy on keeping the heat and cool inside the house so we don’t have a need in the first place to generate it.

    Watched a home tour of a house in Canada that built to passive standards and was going to be able to be heated with something stupid like 4000 watts of electricity. And it wasn’t some 300 sqft home.

    Thinking it was like R40 or 50 walls


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbhenergy View Post
    Personally I think before shoving solar this and wind that down everyone’s throat and force heat pumps in every home, we should focus our time and energy on keeping the heat and cool inside the house so we don’t have a need in the first place to generate it.

    Watched a home tour of a house in Canada that built to passive standards and was going to be able to be heated with something stupid like 4000 watts of electricity. And it wasn’t some 300 sqft home.

    Thinking it was like R40 or 50 walls


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I built my daughters house and the walls are poured in place concrete with 12 inch Urethane sip's panels for the ceiling and 10" for the walls. Its like a big roomy walk in cooler.
    It dosent take much to heat it if it is kept closed up. The problem is that it is so air tight that the air becomes stuffy very quickly and very humid from showers and even sweat. It starts dripping down the wall if more than 4 people are in the house and It needs alot of outside air to keep it comfortable inside. I had to install a 3 ton Fancoil with strip heat and a economizer to make it livable with de humidification and reheat. It was either that or I have to keep the windows open all the time. It takes ALOT of energy to warm the outside air during the winter. This is on top of the minisplits.
    Last edited by Jimmy111; 03-15-2021 at 09:41 PM. Reason: additional

  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy111 View Post
    I built my daughters house and the walls are poured in place concrete with 12 inch Urethane sip's panels for the ceiling and 10" for the walls. Its like a big roomy walk in cooler.
    It dosent take much to heat it if it is kept closed up. The problem is that it is so air tight that the air becomes stuffy very quickly and very humid from showers and even sweat. It starts dripping down the wall if more than 4 people are in the house and It needs alot of outside air to keep it comfortable inside. I had to install a 3 ton Fancoil with strip heat and a economizer to make it livable with de humidification and reheat. It was either that or I have to keep the windows open all the time. It takes ALOT of energy to warm the outside air during the winter. This is on top of the minisplits.
    Wouldn't a ducted dehumidifier have done a better job? Remove humidity AND contribute a little heat while adding fresh air. Or the CERV2 that I've been reading about.
    *********
    https://www.hvac20.com/ High efficiency equipment alone does not provide home comfort and efficiency. HVAC2.0 is a process for finding the real needs of the house and the occupants. Offer the customer a menu of work to address their problems and give them a probability of success.

    Find contractors with specialized training in combustion analysis, residential system performance, air flow, and duct optimization https://www.myhomecomfort.org/


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  6. #84
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    With respect to the building envelope discussion.....

    It's true, there is no such thing as common sense, but it should be common knowledge by now, that you can only go so far when you seal an envelope for human occupation.
    There are a multitude of negative issues that crop up inside, ranging from indoor air quality to latent load concerns.

    Presently, one of the better solutions is to introduce outside air into the envelope through the use of some form of energy recovery apparatus.

    With respect to all of this, "forcing down our throats" windmills and solar panel rhetoric......

    We've seen and heard all this before, though not as virulent and forceful as now, but it will all eventually come full circle. All the spouting off about how the technology is better and cheaper, and bla bla bla, is nothing new.

    Until we roll out real solutions, nothing will change. For now, the indoctrinated will have their chance to rule the sea, until they eventually figure out that their boat has a hole in it.
    For now, the rest of us simply need to put on our life preservers, and survive as best as we can while we watch the ship sink.

    Instead of asking "Can we talk economics?" We should be asking ourselves what will the future look like in 20 years after we've committed ourselves to half solutions.

  7. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdean1 View Post
    Wouldn't a ducted dehumidifier have done a better job? Remove humidity AND contribute a little heat while adding fresh air. Or the CERV2 that I've been reading about.
    Tried that first. The air became foul quickly without outside air. CO2 levels exceeded 1000ppm. The outside air was really dry so during the winter it only need heat. It would dry out the inside of the house eaisly. In the summer it was humid at times and the dehumidifier and AC was required.

  8. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    With respect to the building envelope discussion.....

    It's true, there is no such thing as common sense, but it should be common knowledge by now, that you can only go so far when you seal an envelope for human occupation.
    There are a multitude of negative issues that crop up inside, ranging from indoor air quality to latent load concerns.

    Presently, one of the better solutions is to introduce outside air into the envelope through the use of some form of energy recovery apparatus.

    With respect to all of this, "forcing down our throats" windmills and solar panel rhetoric......

    We've seen and heard all this before, though not as virulent and forceful as now, but it will all eventually come full circle. All the spouting off about how the technology is better and cheaper, and bla bla bla, is nothing new.

    Until we roll out real solutions, nothing will change. For now, the indoctrinated will have their chance to rule the sea, until they eventually figure out that their boat has a hole in it.
    For now, the rest of us simply need to put on our life preservers, and survive as best as we can while we watch the ship sink.

    Instead of asking "Can we talk economics?" We should be asking ourselves what will the future look like in 20 years after we've committed ourselves to half solutions.
    Its always half solutions. Get used to it. Remember, its a agreement with 2 people and an edict with one. No one likes edicts.

    Anyhow. I didnt see any solutions in your post. Just complaints about others who wont accept edicts.

  9. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy111 View Post
    Tried that first. The air became foul quickly without outside air. CO2 levels exceeded 1000ppm. The outside air was really dry so during the winter it only need heat. It would dry out the inside of the house easily. In the summer it was humid at times and the dehumidifier and AC was required.
    It is possible to add an outside air duct so the dehumidifier provides ventilation, too. It also needs a damper and controller.
    A tight house is great for heating and cooling control but ventilation has to be taken into account for occupant comfort. Too often the target is temperature control without consideration for humidity and air quality.
    *********
    https://www.hvac20.com/ High efficiency equipment alone does not provide home comfort and efficiency. HVAC2.0 is a process for finding the real needs of the house and the occupants. Offer the customer a menu of work to address their problems and give them a probability of success.

    Find contractors with specialized training in combustion analysis, residential system performance, air flow, and duct optimization https://www.myhomecomfort.org/


    Site member map HERE!

  10. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdean1 View Post
    It is possible to add an outside air duct so the dehumidifier provides ventilation, too. It also needs a damper and controller.
    A tight house is great for heating and cooling control but ventilation has to be taken into account for occupant comfort. Too often the target is temperature control without consideration for humidity and air quality.
    Yes, When we originally built the house it was to have central air. So it was already ducted. So the addition of the Fan coil was not such a big deal. But I was really surprised at how much Outside air was needed in such a tight house. You cook some tacos in the kitchen and peoples eyes are burning in the bedrooms all the way on the other side if the house. And the smell dosent go away. After much experimenting we came to the conclusion that 5 air changes per hour were needed at least. The Fancoil/economizer has a 12kw strip heater in it and it runs most of the time during the really cold months. It all seems to balance out in the long run. lots of recirculated heating with normal insulation or lots of heating Outside air with a tight building. Still took us 3 tons of heat either way.

  11. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy111 View Post
    Yes, When we originally built the house it was to have central air. So it was already ducted. So the addition of the Fan coil was not such a big deal. But I was really surprised at how much Outside air was needed in such a tight house. You cook some tacos in the kitchen and peoples eyes are burning in the bedrooms all the way on the other side if the house. And the smell dosent go away. After much experimenting we came to the conclusion that 5 air changes per hour were needed at least. The Fancoil/economizer has a 12kw strip heater in it and it runs most of the time during the really cold months. It all seems to balance out in the long run. lots of recirculated heating with normal insulation or lots of heating Outside air with a tight building. Still took us 3 tons of heat either way.
    Thanks for the background. That must have been a considerable latent load. Do you have a blower door number for the house? 5 ACH ventilation is higher than I would have expected.How many people were in the house?
    What you described with cooking odors emphasizes the need for mechanical intake air so kitchen ventilation can operate successfully. Especially when some homeowners insist on huge range hoods.
    *********
    https://www.hvac20.com/ High efficiency equipment alone does not provide home comfort and efficiency. HVAC2.0 is a process for finding the real needs of the house and the occupants. Offer the customer a menu of work to address their problems and give them a probability of success.

    Find contractors with specialized training in combustion analysis, residential system performance, air flow, and duct optimization https://www.myhomecomfort.org/


    Site member map HERE!

  12. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdean1 View Post
    Thanks for the background. That must have been a considerable latent load. Do you have a blower door number for the house? 5 ACH ventilation is higher than I would have expected.How many people were in the house?
    What you described with cooking odors emphasizes the need for mechanical intake air so kitchen ventilation can operate successfully. Especially when some homeowners insist on huge range hoods.
    No Blower door test but Prior to the installation of a relief damper, It was really tough to open the front door with the makeup air running.
    Usually there are 5 people and 2 dogs. However there are always people over. She has lots of visitors. Also 2 aquariums.
    House in in the 2500sqft range single story.

  13. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy111 View Post
    No Blower door test but Prior to the installation of a relief damper, It was really tough to open the front door with the makeup air running.
    Usually there are 5 people and 2 dogs. However there are always people over. She has lots of visitors. Also 2 aquariums.
    House in in the 2500sqft range single story.
    Water will always be evaporating into the house unless they are completely sealed. I suspect they contribute to high humidity. People also contribute humidity just by exhaling. Make them stop. Cooking and washing generate even more.

    If you have an ERV or HRV make sure you have the fan flows balanced so they don't contribute to a pressure problem.
    *********
    https://www.hvac20.com/ High efficiency equipment alone does not provide home comfort and efficiency. HVAC2.0 is a process for finding the real needs of the house and the occupants. Offer the customer a menu of work to address their problems and give them a probability of success.

    Find contractors with specialized training in combustion analysis, residential system performance, air flow, and duct optimization https://www.myhomecomfort.org/


    Site member map HERE!

  14. #92
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    Few realize that the true cost to make electricity with available green energy is $.40 per KW. C
    This covers mainly depreciation of the equipment over 20 years. Currently utility companies are delivering for $.10-$.14 per KW.

    Natural gas and clean coal are effective. As I write this post, WI fruit tree blossoms, sprouting corn and soybeans are being killed by a late frost. Just a couple degrees of global warming would have saved millions dollars worth of crops.

    This is not a simple problem.

    Regards Teddy Bear
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  15. #93
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    that's one problem with climate manipulation, which country gets to set the global tstat where it most benefits their climate?
    Col 3:23


    questions asked, answers received, ignorance abated

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