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Thread: Electrify Everything

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    The green energy movement wants to totally eliminate the use of fossil fuels. We've heard that over and over and over. At present fossil fuels are plentiful thanks to President Trump. Given that information libs please explain why Artrose is wrong and while you are at it explain why solar and wind energy isn't working in this cold weather. Wind and solar are an integral part of going green so if they are failing why to keep pushing that crap. Come up with a viable green energy that is reliable and us conservatives will embrace it but quit trying to shame us into accepting things that we know will fail.
    It is his and seems to be your premise to start with so why don't you and Artrose do what you are asking? If you bothered to read this thread and any reliable news source many of those questions are addressed.
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  2. #62
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    With NG heat you don't need heat strips.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    The green energy movement wants to totally eliminate the use of fossil fuels. We've heard that over and over and over. At present fossil fuels are plentiful thanks to President Trump. Given that information libs please explain why Artrose is wrong and while you are at it explain why solar and wind energy isn't working in this cold weather. Wind and solar are an integral part of going green so if they are failing why to keep pushing that crap. Come up with a viable green energy that is reliable and us conservatives will embrace it but quit trying to shame us into accepting things that we know will fail.
    The problem in Texas lies in Texas. It is a state run by republicans and yet people like you look for others to blame. That says much about you.

    Wimd power works fine in weather like this. Texas just doesn't like to follow good advice. I lived near a wind mill farm where it was -30 and we got over 10' of snow per year and they worked fine.

    Notice how you can't take your own advice and expect others to do so.

    Also funny how your signature is also a lie. Jefferson did not say that.
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  4. #64
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    This cold snap is an oddity. People who prepare for the worst are better than those that rely on 'the grid' or the government etc.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    The problem in Texas lies in Texas. It is a state run by republicans and yet people like you look for others to blame. That says much about you.

    Wimd power works fine in weather like this. Texas just doesn't like to follow good advice. I lived near a wind mill farm where it was -30 and we got over 10' of snow per year and they worked fine.

    Notice how you can't take your own advice and expect others to do so.

    Also funny how your signature is also a lie. Jefferson did not say that.

    Works well in weather like this.... What about when the blades are iced up? I don't fly in icing conditions, and even if I had de-ice, I would not.

    This is another of those misleading justifications for a technology with serious reliability issues.

    Saying stuff like this is almost as bad as the member of ERCOT telling the public that the turbine generator failures were due to the well heads on the gas wells freezing up.

    I know the public is generally pretty slow on the uptake, and you can get away with a lot of b..s. when you need to. A lot of folks simply buy into it without much thought, but we're not all stupid.

    Besides, where was all that solar input when all those dainty solar panels were iced over?

    Extremely poor management coupled with a reliance on an unreliable technology caused this, and rest assured it's coming your way.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    Works well in weather like this.... What about when the blades are iced up? I don't fly in icing conditions, and even if I had de-ice, I would not.

    This is another of those misleading justifications for a technology with serious reliability issues.

    Saying stuff like this is almost as bad as the member of ERCOT telling the public that the turbine generator failures were due to the well heads on the gas wells freezing up.

    I know the public is generally pretty slow on the uptake, and you can get away with a lot of b..s. when you need to. A lot of folks simply buy into it without much thought, but we're not all stupid.

    Besides, where was all that solar input when all those dainty solar panels were iced over?

    Extremely poor management coupled with a reliance on an unreliable technology caused this, and rest assured it's coming your way.
    Once again wind turbines can be weatherized and work perfectly well in conditions much worse than down there. Try reading and stop repeating nonsense. The whole system was recommended to be weatherized but republicans running it in a republican controlled state decided not to. Solar panels put out more power than most people think in these conditions also. Another problem worth repeating is that republicans in a republican controlled state decided to keep production much to close to demand and then isolate themselves in their own grid. Plenty of blame to go around it is just you are clueless as to where to point it. SAD!
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageyjim View Post
    Once again wind turbines can be weatherized and work perfectly well in conditions much worse than down there. Try reading and stop repeating nonsense. The whole system was recommended to be weatherized but republicans running it in a republican controlled state decided not to. Solar panels put out more power than most people think in these conditions also. Another problem worth repeating is that republicans in a republican controlled state decided to keep production much to close to demand and then isolate themselves in their own grid. Plenty of blame to go around it is just you are clueless as to where to point it. SAD!
    I tried to keep politics out of this. And I will continue to do so.

    Go forward with your beliefs, and your Green New Deal.

    People have died because of this, and I pray that in the future, you, yours, and your neighbors don't fall victim to a similar situation.

    You win dude.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    I tried to keep politics out of this. And I will continue to do so.

    Go forward with your beliefs, and your Green New Deal.

    People have died because of this, and I pray that in the future, you, yours, and your neighbors don't fall victim to a similar situation.

    You win dude.
    The truth won, I just hope you are willing to see it.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    I tried to keep politics out of this. And I will continue to do so.

    Go forward with your beliefs, and your Green New Deal.

    People have died because of this, and I pray that in the future, you, yours, and your neighbors don't fall victim to a similar situation.

    You win dude.


    "I tried to keep politics out of this. And I will continue to do so."

    Nonsense.

    You should have said that to Wayne but didn't for some reason. But you can go ahead and talk about the Green New Deal and "greenies" etc. Don't be a phony, at least be honest with yourself.
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  10. #70
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    How did I get back into this pageyjim?? Even golden showers now days get political so I guess even baths are political.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    How did I get back into this pageyjim?? Even golden showers now days get political so I guess even baths are political.
    By your own post my short term memory failing friend. Praising Trump and blaming libs...
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  12. #72
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    My memory isn't as good as it once was pageyjim but I was trying to inject a little humor. Lighten up and enjoy life because it's shorter than you might think. If Artrose wants to give you a break take it.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    My memory isn't as good as it once was pageyjim but I was trying to inject a little humor. Lighten up and enjoy life because it's shorter than you might think. If Artrose wants to give you a break take it.

    Now that post was actually funny.
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  14. #74
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    Glad you licked it. Now we are on the same pagey.
    No man can be both ignorant and free.
    Thomas Jefferson

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    Glad you licked it. Now we are on the same pagey.
    On one part I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about and on another I doubt it.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAYNE3298 View Post
    My memory isn't as good as it once was pageyjim but I was trying to inject a little humor. Lighten up and enjoy life because it's shorter than you might think. If Artrose wants to give you a break take it.

    Thanks for the support Wayne, but some you win, and some you don't. All you can do is try. Besides, I think he's enjoying playing the Spoon role.

    Here's a link we might all take a minute to read.....

    https://boereport.com/2020/02/05/so-...d-think-twice/

  17. #77
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    Ill Ad a little to this.
    I Live in Wyoming. Ive been trying for decades to get my house to be self sufficient. I have 60kw of solar and 2 15kw wind turbines.
    I use heat pumps for heating and add a little heat to them by some special heat pipe solar collectors I made.

    I should have plenty of power. But I dont. And it dosent work when I need it the most. So I have to use wood and even coal and if I ever leave the house for any length of time, I need to leave the propane heaters on. (Williams direct vent) Either that or remodel when I get back. Leaving the Propane heat on is much cheaper.
    Technology is getting better. But it also adds risk of failure. Ive had 2 inverters suddenly stop working and a 4 batteries at different times suddenly short out leaving me with no power at all. Buy an inverter. Then try to get some technical sport for them. It aint happening. I finally designed and made my own. At least when something happens, I can fix them now.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy111 View Post
    Ill Ad a little to this.
    I Live in Wyoming. Ive been trying for decades to get my house to be self sufficient. I have 60kw of solar and 2 15kw wind turbines.
    I use heat pumps for heating and add a little heat to them by some special heat pipe solar collectors I made.

    I should have plenty of power. But I dont. And it dosent work when I need it the most. So I have to use wood and even coal and if I ever leave the house for any length of time, I need to leave the propane heaters on. (Williams direct vent) Either that or remodel when I get back. Leaving the Propane heat on is much cheaper.
    Technology is getting better. But it also adds risk of failure. Ive had 2 inverters suddenly stop working and a 4 batteries at different times suddenly short out leaving me with no power at all. Buy an inverter. Then try to get some technical sport for them. It aint happening. I finally designed and made my own. At least when something happens, I can fix them now.

    A voice of experience speaking out. And someone we should be listening to. But, most won't. Thank you anyway.

    A few years from now you'll not be the lone kid on the block, because there will be masses of people with similar experiences.

    And once again, we'll be ripping out thousands of neglected, or non functioning green energy systems, just like we did in the 90's from the Carter era green energy push.

    Life is a wheel, and too many people are just plain stupid.

  19. #79
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    Can we talk economics?

    Solar, wind, and batteries have fallen in price 70-90% since 2010 which makes them the least expensive generation technologies in many if not most markets (yes, unsubsidized.) Google "Lazard LCOE 2020" to see the charts. LCOE is levelized cost of energy, it's the cost per megawatt hour (mwh = 1000 kwh) over the life expectancy of the plant. It's an imperfect but pretty good metric (no metric is perfect.)

    Those technologies are on the downward learning curve of new technologies, and are approaching the cheapest energy mankind has ever known (they are there in some cases.) Fossil fuels are mature, so they are unlikely to drop more, and depending on politics may increase in price.

    Like it or not, electrification is coming on pure economics. Green intentions have nothing to do with it. Tony Seba has some great presentations on this. So does Spark Spread in his Tesla Energy 101 video that beautifully explains how the grid works and where it's going. Most of us are going to have batteries in our homes to smooth out hills and valleys of production while providing backup power. Tesla can produce batteries for less than $100/kwh now, the batteries in my 2012 Chevy Volt were about $1000/kwh.

    The good news is inverter heat pumps are good enough for most climates, we've removed 10 gas meters in Cleveland Ohio without any programs, so it's possible. Climates that spend a good chunk of their winter below 0F are challenging, but it's possible there too.

    Change is coming, it's basically a matter if we want to get in early or not.

    PS The biggest problem in Texas was the gas supply literally freezing up because the pipelines weren't designed for those temps. The power plants got shut down because homes are prioritized above them, so if we move to more gas furnaces and gas generators the problem will be worse next time, not better. That said, every system failed, and failed rather spectacularly. It's what happens when you push a machine well beyond what it was designed for.

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  21. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Adams View Post
    Can we talk economics?

    Solar, wind, and batteries have fallen in price 70-90% since 2010 which makes them the least expensive generation technologies in many if not most markets (yes, unsubsidized.) Google "Lazard LCOE 2020" to see the charts. LCOE is levelized cost of energy, it's the cost per megawatt hour (mwh = 1000 kwh) over the life expectancy of the plant. It's an imperfect but pretty good metric (no metric is perfect.)

    Those technologies are on the downward learning curve of new technologies, and are approaching the cheapest energy mankind has ever known (they are there in some cases.) Fossil fuels are mature, so they are unlikely to drop more, and depending on politics may increase in price.

    Like it or not, electrification is coming on pure economics. Green intentions have nothing to do with it. Tony Seba has some great presentations on this. So does Spark Spread in his Tesla Energy 101 video that beautifully explains how the grid works and where it's going. Most of us are going to have batteries in our homes to smooth out hills and valleys of production while providing backup power. Tesla can produce batteries for less than $100/kwh now, the batteries in my 2012 Chevy Volt were about $1000/kwh.

    The good news is inverter heat pumps are good enough for most climates, we've removed 10 gas meters in Cleveland Ohio without any programs, so it's possible. Climates that spend a good chunk of their winter below 0F are challenging, but it's possible there too.

    Change is coming, it's basically a matter if we want to get in early or not.

    PS The biggest problem in Texas was the gas supply literally freezing up because the pipelines weren't designed for those temps. The power plants got shut down because homes are prioritized above them, so if we move to more gas furnaces and gas generators the problem will be worse next time, not better. That said, every system failed, and failed rather spectacularly. It's what happens when you push a machine well beyond what it was designed for.
    Yes, Parts are cheaper. I just bought a pallet (10kw) of panels for 4k. Im going to replace some panels I installed 20 years ago that dont work well anymore.
    I DO live where it gets below 0 in the winter. Inverter heatpumps have become much better. they are no longer limited to 32+. I can use the off the shelf ones down to -5 or so. However when the OAT gets lower than 10F they start to use more energy then simple strip heaters. They are also maintenance nightmares when it comes to the coils getting clogged with ice and the fans getting stuck. All it takes is a little snow blowing.
    Programming needs to be improved alot. Many brands just plain shut off when the OAT gets too cold. If you are not home when that happens, its frozen building problems.
    I test a lot of equipment for some global brands and do inverter and communications R&D work. There isnt a heatpump yet and nothing in development that will do a credible job of heating the cold climates where half of america lives. Hotwater heaters are in the same boat.
    Personally I think that every jurisdiction should have a coal plant. Its the only form of generating electricity where you can actually store enough extra fuel to get you buy in an emergency.

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