New NEC 2020 change

[270wsm]

I noticed part of the new 2020 NEC requires a surge protector to be installed if any service equipment is replaced. I’m assuming that’s just electrical service equipment? I can’t imagine having to install a whole home surge protector if just changing out the A/c unit.


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[James Colver]

I can tell you here in Washington a lot of electricians I know have very strong feelings about the 2020 NEC. Basically what happened was a bunch of Representatives who work for leviton and other product manufacturers got elected to the board for the NEC and mandated all this new electronic equipment which their own company manufacturers. This new electronic equipment has proven to be extremely unreliable and results in countless callbacks because frustrated customers are sick and tired of their breakers tripping for no reason. I've literally seen electricians install arc fault breakers to be 2020 compliant and after the electrical inspection pull them out and pull regular breakers back in. The only reason why I was because the arc faults were terribly unreliable and they didn't want to get callbacks. It's a very weird time we are in right now and I fear fewer and fewer contractors are even going to pull permits in response to what has happened. for the last 10 years I've been in business I always prided myself that I always pulled permits. But if a contractor can't achieve a reliable result and have it be completely up to code what are you going to do........

[Poodle Head Mikey]

That reminds me of a funny thing. I went to a bankruptcy auction and one of the items was a stack of residential evaporators. New, never opened, still in the box. But from all different companies. After I bought them I found that one of the guys there at the auction had worked for the company. He told me that when matched-systems became a requirement for rebates and so forth his boss would buy the matching evaporators, add the cost of the coil to the proposal, but then never install the new coil - just re-use the existing coil. It was explained to the customer and reduced the price so a lot of them accepted it. Some were later used for coil-only replacements he said but most just stacked up in the warehouse.

Even funnier (and ironically so <g>) is that I think I Still have one or two of those coils from that auction. Yeah; one more good deal . . . . <g>

OH! That reminds me! A friend of mine is looking for a coil! How cool would that be? I'll have to check and see if one of those NOS coils will work.

PHM
--------

I can tell you here in Washington a lot of electricians I know have very strong feelings about the 2020 NEC. Basically what happened was a bunch of Representatives who work for leviton and other product manufacturers got elected to the board for the NEC and mandated all this new electronic equipment which their own company manufacturers. This new electronic equipment has proven to be extremely unreliable and results in countless callbacks because frustrated customers are sick and tired of their breakers tripping for no reason. I've literally seen electricians install arc fault breakers to be 2020 compliant and after the electrical inspection pull them out and pull regular breakers back in. The only reason why I was because the arc faults were terribly unreliable and they didn't want to get callbacks. It's a very weird time we are in right now and I fear fewer and fewer contractors are even going to pull permits in response to what has happened. for the last 10 years I've been in business I always prided myself that I always pulled permits. But if a contractor can't achieve a reliable result and have it be completely up to code what are you going to do........

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Thanks!

I do have a CAPA036 coil sitting since way back then!

Oh wait: that's a Goodman number? Right? When was the 'they all leak' period of time for Goodman coils?

[parsky1]

That is bad if that’s the truth! I haven’t read the 2020 code yet. Bad enough we have to deal with the cost and expense of unreliable arc fault breakers.

[kangaroogod]

That is bad if that’s the truth! I haven’t read the 2020 code yet. Bad enough we have to deal with the cost and expense of unreliable arc fault breakers.

And just wait for the enforcement of outdoor disconnects for all residential homes. Midnight drunks walking down the block shutting off everyone's electric..

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[kdean1]

And just wait for the enforcement of outdoor disconnects for all residential homes. Midnight drunks walking down the block shutting off everyone's electric..

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Not much a problem here in our rural area.
I have always thought someone with a grudge could cause a lot of trouble for somebody by pulling the disconnect and walking away with it.

[slctech]

Not much a problem here in our rural area.
I have always thought someone with a grudge could cause a lot of trouble for somebody by pulling the disconnect and walking away with it.

About 7 or 8 years ago we had an apartment complex with about 40 units. I can only assume one of the renters p!ssed or something. But everyone of the removable stab connectors in all of those AC unit disconnects was pulled and gone. You can't just buy those, that was a busy day replacing all those disconnects.



For ongoing training out here for our electricians, they have a UL guy fly in and teach for 2 days (two 8 hour courses) for their on-going education. In any case I may not be a licensed electrician but since I work along side them, I attend the classes. The most recent one was all about the NEC 2020 changes coming up.

Obviously as an HVAC guy I perk up a bit when HVAC stuff comes into the conversation, usually just start to doze when the number of receptacles and spacing along a wall or kitchen island are being discussed.

But the change in the NEC 2020 is to have GFCI protection for ALL electric appliances, including the outdoor HVAC equipment. We were told by the UL guy that this was driven by numerous electrocutions of children. Apparently one was between the washer and the wall getting a sock or something that fell behind and was smoked, a PTAC unit wiped another kid out somewhere, and another kid was climbing on the outdoor AC unit and touched the chain link fence and he/she was smoked. And many other similar situations where it may not have ended with death, but reported.

It is only code if your jurisdiction adopts the code. I think we are still using NEC 2015 here where I am at and no future talk about changing any time soon.

[hvacker]

I believe the term "service equipment" refers to the mains from the utility.
The outdoor disconnect I believe is a choice of either /or. Next to the entrance
within a certain distance or outside. Shutting off power can be a problem for fire
responders if the service main is no where in sight. CA, I don't know about.

Codes are like middle managers, they just keep adding more.

[Bythenumbers]

Not much a problem here in our rural area.
I have always thought someone with a grudge could cause a lot of trouble for somebody by pulling the disconnect and walking away with it.

I think you're picturing an HVAC style pull-out disco lol.

A 100 or 200A service rated disconnect won't have anything for the assailant to walk away with, the disco is made up of a lever or breaker.

[Bythenumbers]

And just wait for the enforcement of outdoor disconnects for all residential homes. Midnight drunks walking down the block shutting off everyone's electric..

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I don't like the code requirement at all, but I have to say that this isn't going to be an issue. There are already areas around the country that have their own code requiring disconnects to be outside. There are also many areas where the entire main panel is located outside, such as California, Oregon, Arizona, etc.

Further, even in areas like mine in which outside disconnects are not required, they are widely used on apartments and condo buildings, and even sometimes houses.

But we never hear of issues with this, so I don't think it will be a thing. It will just be a much larger bill that the homeowner will have to pay for a service upgrade.

[BBeerme]

I've seen those pull out disconnects up to 100 amps, maybe even greater.

I think you're picturing an HVAC style pull-out disco lol.

A 100 or 200A service rated disconnect won't have anything for the assailant to walk away with, the disco is made up of a lever or breaker.

[Bythenumbers]

I've seen those pull out disconnects up to 100 amps, maybe even greater.

SUSE (Suitable for Use as Service Equipment)?

I'm really doubting it.

[BBeerme]

SUSE (Suitable for Use as Service Equipment)?

I'm really doubting it.

They were in an electrical Room and fed breaker panels inside the building. The one that is burned into my memory fed a Server Room. Probably dozens of outlets. At least 100 amps.

Their air conditioning went down and all of the little fans on the individual servers ramped up to full speed. I had no idea they were variable speed until then. But they had so many servers with so many of those little fans the amps got so high that it finally blew a fuse in the main panel. And in that process it also welded in the pull out disconnect.

I could not pull it out with all my might. Getting very late in the day, probably a Friday, so I told the guy in charge to call a commercial electrician as soon as possible and to make sure to tell them it was an emergency and they would likely have to pay to have an electrical wholesaler to open up to get parts.

I'm sure it was all code when initially installed and if the electrical code changed, then they would have been grandfathered in.

[Bythenumbers]

I will edit my original statement:

A 100 or 200A service rated disconnect installed on a new service or upgrade today, according to the 2020 code change that we are speaking about, won't have anything for the assailant to walk away with, the disco is made up of a lever or breaker.

[BBeerme]

So, nothing wrong with having a pull out disconnect on a 100 or 200 amp panel serving other panels?

For what it is worth, and just so it is said, I hate those pull out disconnects. I don't care what the amperage.

I will edit my original statement:

A 100 or 200A service rated disconnect installed on a new service or upgrade today, according to the 2020 code change that we are speaking about, won't have anything for the assailant to walk away with, the disco is made up of a lever or breaker.

[Bythenumbers]

So, nothing wrong with having a pull out disconnect on a 100 or 200 amp panel serving other panels?

Not that I know of, but I am not sure which exact model you are speaking about. I have never seen a pull out disco for this purpose. Most are for line-to-line loads only (such as 240V AC) and don't have any provisions for neutrals.

For what it is worth, and just so it is said, I hate those pull out disconnects. I don't care what the amperage.

My understanding is that pull out discos available today are just meant to be really cheap. I bought a couple dozen on sale for $6 at Home Depot a few years back to use for resi condensing units.

In that instance they really serve no purpose, they are just for the lazy HVAC guys who don't want to have to walk into the house and shutoff the breaker. The same way as we have to install an outlet in close proximity to HVAC equipment for their convenience. yet we don't have to install an outlet near the electrical panel, nor a light. You would think electrical code would help electrician more than HVAC guys!

Yes, I am joking (mostly )

[jlanesey]

200amp pull out disconnect, no thanks!

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[Poodle Head Mikey]

I would be very leery of a pull-out type disconnect at anything over maybe 30-40 amps. Picture the arc-flash of pulling one out slowly with a 100-200 amp load? <g>

Disconnects of any size generally have an over-center action and strong springs to actually snatch the contacts open quickly. Pull-outs would always be subject to the slowness of the person operating them. And they could stick part way out - that might get exciting. <g>

PHM
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So, nothing wrong with having a pull out disconnect on a 100 or 200 amp panel serving other panels?

For what it is worth, and just so it is said, I hate those pull out disconnects. I don't care what the amperage.

[kangaroogod]

I for 1 am not a big fan of pulling out

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