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Thread: Cost of a combustion analysis

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by superheatmaster View Post
    How do you know what the readings are supposed to be? Does the analyzer give you ranges or sound alarms when the numbers arent right?
    There are a few publications out there that will give you general numbers to look for when doing combustion testing, but the best way to learn this subject, is by attending a CO Safety and Combustion Performance class.

    These classes will teach you not only the combustion specs to look for on different types of equipment, but how to correct the problem based on the readings your combustion analyzer is showing you.

    Just noting a unit is producing high levels of CO, and telling the customer they need a new system, is not in their best interest.

    Analyzing the amount of CO and O2 in the flue gas (plus its action - rising, falling or stable), the flue gas temperature, the draft, and the supply air temperature, all complete the picture of how the system is performing, and how one should go about repairing it to ensure it is not only safe, but efficient.
    Instead of learning the tricks of the trade, learn the trade.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Dave_NY View Post
    As you test more equipment you will see what normal readings are supposed to be. Most important thing is to make sure that the unit is not producing high CO! 50+ PPM on ignition is not unusual, but most equipment should run clean after combustion stabilizes. Also always make sure that forced air equipment doesn't show a rise in O2% after the fan comes on.
    Some manufacturers state what O2% or CO2% they want during operation in the installation instructions.
    There's no excuse for not doing a proper combustion analysis during commissioning and servicing of fuel burning systems. The customer is paying you to assure safe, reliable and efficient operation of the system. Safety cannot be determined without combustion analysis!
    50+ppm on start up, usually much higher than that in my experience. You got raw gas for an instant when the burner lights and the device senses it. Ya gotta let the thing run awhile, until flue temp gets pretty stable. Kinda like checking temp rise on a furnace. Yes Dave you should check ALL fuel burning appliances with a combustion analysis.

    The thread started with asking the question about charging for the procedure. These tools are pricey, and need annual calibration / tested to insure correct readings. However YOU do it, extra charge or build the price in That cost is still there, overhead so to speak if ya build it in, just like a torch for those who don't have a charge for that. The Issue I've found is raising your price to not only cover it, but also make $$$, (we are in business to MAKE $$$) is How many new clients you won't get when the initial call comes in and they say "how much do you charge to check a furnace". Yes, tire kickin price shoppers will always exist. I have no desire to be the cheapest. I want clients who don't eat at resturants with plastic forks, but we should agree that education of the general public of this needed service is the hurdle we face.

  3. #23
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    One analyzer does give ranges for some equipment. That is the Bacharach Insight. It does tell you possible problems based on the reading. NCI helped them program it. Certain problems cannot be built in like venting and combustion air. The only training that teaches everything possible based on the combustion numbers is NCI. This class is based on 40 years of field testing with a digital combustion analyzer. You can easily tell which of the members here have attended the class.

    Sorry rundawg, I missed your post.

    Yes, Light-off can be as high as 400 ppm on natural draft and as high as 1000 ppm on induced draft. These are acceptable when the equipment is operating correctly. Keeping them minimum by cleaning and aligning burners is good, but adjusting the gas pressure to make them lower can be a mistake, especially if the CO is less than 100 ppm and stable while it is running.
    Last edited by Jim Davis; 10-14-2020 at 09:23 AM. Reason: add
    captain CO

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  5. #24
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    Does anyone know when NCI will start giving classes again? Currently it has online instruction for those who wish to renew the certification, but I do not see the 3 day in person class listed on the schedule...
    Philippians 4:13
    I can do all things in him that strengthen me.
    Apostle Paul inspired by GOD.

  6. #25
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    I have a minimum charge for the use of the CA to cover upkeep. It is not an option. If I touch a furnace it gets tested. The only time I have not done a CA on a gas appliance I was working on was if I was changing a motor and I had did the CA when I found the motor needed replaced for example. If someone calls in and asks how much it costs to have a furnace checked, I tell them what the service call is and then what the CA charge is, then I tell them what the CA does and I have only had one that walked away and went elsewhere.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artietech View Post
    Does anyone know when NCI will start giving classes again? Currently it has online instruction for those who wish to renew the certification, but I do not see the 3 day in person class listed on the schedule...
    The latest I've heard is they want to try and start back up early next year, but the problem they are having is the distributors that hold the classes, don't want a large group of people invading their office space yet.

    If your business has a large group of people (roughly 10 I think), and a space to hold the class, they would probably be more inclined to set something up.
    Instead of learning the tricks of the trade, learn the trade.

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rundawg View Post
    The latest I've heard is they want to try and start back up early next year, but the problem they are having is the distributors that hold the classes, don't want a large group of people invading their office space yet.

    If your business has a large group of people (roughly 10 I think), and a space to hold the class, they would probably be more inclined to set something up.
    I'm pretty sure we have the space, I teach at Tyler Junior College, so is ten the minimum amount of students needed for a class?

    Do you who at NCI I would need to contact? I must have missed that on the website...

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artietech View Post
    I'm pretty sure we have the space, I teach at Tyler Junior College, so is ten the minimum amount of students needed for a class?

    Do you who at NCI I would need to contact? I must have missed that on the website...
    I am not a spokesman for NCI, so please don't quote me on what I said before, I just know they have done it that way in the past before COVID, and not sure if it is the same now.

    I don't think they advertise on the website about private classes, but think I've heard you need 9 - 10 student to make it worth their while.

    If Jim Davis comes back on this thread, he could give you a more accurate answer.
    Instead of learning the tricks of the trade, learn the trade.

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rundawg View Post
    I am not a spokesman for NCI, so please don't quote me on what I said before, I just know they have done it that way in the past before COVID, and not sure if it is the same now.

    I don't think they advertise on the website about private classes, but think I've heard you need 9 - 10 student to make it worth their while.

    If Jim Davis comes back on this thread, he could give you a more accurate answer.
    Understood, I will look for contact info on the website....and then see how to add to next year's budget request.....
    Philippians 4:13
    I can do all things in him that strengthen me.
    Apostle Paul inspired by GOD.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artietech View Post
    Understood, I will look for contact info on the website....and then see how to add to next year's budget request.....
    Have you tried just calling NCI? I have talked to them many times about classes that have been canceled in my area from lack of registrations, discussing things like alternate sites, timing, etc.

  13. #31
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    I will now that I know it may be possible to host a class.


    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    Have you tried just calling NCI? I have talked to them many times about classes that have been canceled in my area from lack of registrations, discussing things like alternate sites, timing, etc.

  14. #32
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    Nick Guarino is in charge of setting up inhouse seminars. We have done several in the last month or so. Usually 12 people is normal for it to be cost effective but more are okay if there is room. The charge is then determined by how many more attend. We just did a class in SC and the company there allowed several other companies to join in.
    captain CO

  15. #33
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    I can definitely understand wanting to recover the cost of combustion analysis. I own a Testo 320 and just recently bought a Testo 300LL. Fortunately my boss is willing to pay for repairs and recalibration.

    I honestly think the better question is what is the cost of not doing proper combustion analysis? Are you willing to risk the safety of your customers? I'm paid to do a job, I try to do the best job possible. I've been behind too many other techs who left units spewing CO into the house.

  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Davis View Post
    Nick Guarino is in charge of setting up inhouse seminars. We have done several in the last month or so. Usually 12 people is normal for it to be cost effective but more are okay if there is room. The charge is then determined by how many more attend. We just did a class in SC and the company there allowed several other companies to join in.
    I have reached out via the contact form on the website. I had a conversation with my Dean, looks like he would be willing to green light the event. Hopefully I hear back soon.

    Thank you for responding
    Philippians 4:13
    I can do all things in him that strengthen me.
    Apostle Paul inspired by GOD.

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