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Thread: The Ozone Hole

  1. #41
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    But..... most of you seem to be arguing the chemistry, or localized atmospheric distribution. I don't have any argument with any of that. The "bad" refrigerants do mix in the atmosphere, and the ozone destruction chemistry is sound.

    The root of my question however, centers around the earths ability to rapidly mix it's northern and southern hemisphere air masses. Atmospheric physics shows that the rapid mix of the two air masses is not possible due to the earth's Coriolis force.

    If the absolute majority of the "bad" substances were released in the northern hemisphere's atmosphere, how did the southern hemisphere suddenly become the victim?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    But..... most of you seem to be arguing the chemistry, or localized atmospheric distribution. I don't have any argument with any of that. The "bad" refrigerants do mix in the atmosphere, and the ozone destruction chemistry is sound.

    The root of my question however, centers around the earths ability to rapidly mix it's northern and southern hemisphere air masses. Atmospheric physics shows that the rapid mix of the two air masses is not possible due to the earth's Coriolis force.

    If the absolute majority of the "bad" substances were released in the northern hemisphere's atmosphere, how did the southern hemisphere suddenly become the victim?

    Some of this has already been addressed. The Antarctic is more prone to have the problem due to the weather conditions that exist there. It doesn't mean that it wasn't thinning elsewhere.

    As far as the coriolis effect I am not sure it does what you are saying it does. The coriolis effect is basically non existent near the equator. Much of the pollutants from the north are washed out in rainfall especially near the equator. And again some pollutants make it to the southern hemisphere.

    Who is saying and more importantly are you saying there is scientific consensus or any credible scientists saying there is a rapid mix of northern and southern air masses?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpdigger View Post
    My other question is: why are we putting out warnings to stay inside due to the heave ozone concentration in large cities if we are truly burning up the ozone by releasing "huge" amounts of CFC's??
    Just wear a mask and you'll be ok.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    But..... most of you seem to be arguing the chemistry, or localized atmospheric distribution. I don't have any argument with any of that. The "bad" refrigerants do mix in the atmosphere, and the ozone destruction chemistry is sound.

    The root of my question however, centers around the earths ability to rapidly mix it's northern and southern hemisphere air masses. Atmospheric physics shows that the rapid mix of the two air masses is not possible due to the earth's Coriolis force.

    If the absolute majority of the "bad" substances were released in the northern hemisphere's atmosphere, how did the southern hemisphere suddenly become the victim?
    Been trying to get back to you, just been real busy lately. The answer to your question is that the refrigerants have little to do with the ozone hole. NASA Had been tracking it for decades, before it became political. When they 1st measured it they said the amount of refrigerant produced could not have made it up to the stratosphere to cause problems. Because it takes about 50 years for air at Earth level to make it up there. I was working out at NASA at the time and got it straight from the scientist mouth. Even worked on the airplane that went down there to take current measurements. Difficult to get into it much right now as I am on my smarty phone. Need a laptop to get into it better or deeper.
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    Been trying to get back to you, just been real busy lately. The answer to your question is that the refrigerants have little to do with the ozone hole. NASA Had been tracking it for decades, before it became political. When they 1st measured it they said the amount of refrigerant produced could not have made it up to the stratosphere to cause problems. Because it takes about 50 years for air at Earth level to make it up there. I was working out at NASA at the time and got it straight from the scientist mouth. Even worked on the airplane that went down there to take current measurements. Difficult to get into it much right now as I am on my smarty phone. Need a laptop to get into it better or deeper.
    So much to say but let's start here.

    "In fact, it can take a CFC molecule about 2 years after being released at the ground to make it to the stratosphere where the ozone is."

    https://science.nasa.gov/science-new...e%20ozone%20is.

    CFC's were invented in 1928 btw.

    The ozone was discovered over 100 years ago and has been measured for app 70 years.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    Been trying to get back to you, just been real busy lately. The answer to your question is that the refrigerants have little to do with the ozone hole. NASA Had been tracking it for decades, before it became political. When they 1st measured it they said the amount of refrigerant produced could not have made it up to the stratosphere to cause problems. Because it takes about 50 years for air at Earth level to make it up there. I was working out at NASA at the time and got it straight from the scientist mouth. Even worked on the airplane that went down there to take current measurements. Difficult to get into it much right now as I am on my smarty phone. Need a laptop to get into it better or deeper.



    Thank you so much for the reply....... You are the first informed person, since I've been periodically asking my question, who is willing to educate me..

    Get that laptop, I'm all ears......

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    You'll have to deal with my beer addled memory, and decades of time passed, but I'll tell it to you as best as I can. For non chlorinated refrigerant, and since we were in a recession, Clinton was in no way going to reverse course and put people out of work,

    Not trying to get political, but seriously, those days were tumultuous. And totally tame compared to what is going on today. Dupont had already spent something like a billion bucks on a new facility to make non CFC's or HCFC's.
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    You'll have to deal with my beer addled memory, and decades of time passed, but I'll tell it to you as best as I can. For non chlorinated refrigerant, and since we were in a recession, Clinton was in no way going to reverse course and put people out of work,

    Not trying to get political, but seriously, those days were tumultuous. And totally tame compared to what is going on today. Dupont had already spent something like a billion bucks on a new facility to make non CFC's or HCFC's.


    Aw, man.... I cooked up all this popcorn, dug out my best thinkin cap, and sat down to this? That's all you got?

    And I thought it was depressing how many people don't have much of a clue about how the Coriolis force effects our atmosphere. (and it's only a YouTube video away)

    Thanks anyway.

  9. #49
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    I did just remember a couple of other interesting factoids. Keep in mind, NASA was the one taking these measurements. Unknowingly, but they were taking them. Here's the way it went down. They were taking samples of the stratosphere for decades, if I ever knew why, I don't remember. Probably just to get a better understanding of what and how our planet 'worked'.

    The ozone levels were all over the map. NASA paid little attention to that because they were not looking for ozone, and their sensors were not calibrated to detect ozone. Then, after decades, someone noticed a cycle. So they went and checked their sensors on how accurate were they for detecting ozone. Come to find out, they were incredibly accurate.

    That's what prompted NASA to look into it further. Think the hole occurred for a relatively short period of time in the winter. Got to the point where they could almost predict the time frame. The bigger point here, as I alluded to earlier, NASA was not really concerned. To them it was a simple fact that whatever was happening, was part of the natural cycle of our planet. But definitely worth looking into.

    They did find that the ozone was breaking down and the 'extra' oxygen was bonding with other things, most notably chlorine. But, as I was told, that still did not account for the readings from several decades prior.

    Now here is the thing I remembered that was very interesting. I can't explain it, was probably told the answer at the time, because I would have asked. One of the lead guys was so dis-interested in the politics, because, scientifically, it really was not a big deal. He went on to say, all we have to do to counter any chlorine from refrigerant in the stratosphere is dump a bunch of propane (butane? maybe no difference in this case) up there and problem solved.

    I asked how much propane. He replied around three 747's worth. Provided the aircraft was completely gutted.

    You see, from the stand point of the scientists', there was not really a problem. Now for the admin at NASA, I'm sure they had to play the game, simply to get funding to stay alive and continue doing what they love to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    Aw, man.... I cooked up all this popcorn, dug out my best thinkin cap, and sat down to this? That's all you got?

    And I thought it was depressing how many people don't have much of a clue about how the Coriolis force effects our atmosphere. (and it's only a YouTube video away)

    Thanks anyway.
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBeerme View Post
    I did just remember a couple of other interesting factoids. Keep in mind, NASA was the one taking these measurements. Unknowingly, but they were taking them. Here's the way it went down. They were taking samples of the stratosphere for decades, if I ever knew why, I don't remember. Probably just to get a better understanding of what and how our planet 'worked'.

    The ozone levels were all over the map. NASA paid little attention to that because they were not looking for ozone, and their sensors were not calibrated to detect ozone. Then, after decades, someone noticed a cycle. So they went and checked their sensors on how accurate were they for detecting ozone. Come to find out, they were incredibly accurate.

    That's what prompted NASA to look into it further. Think the hole occurred for a relatively short period of time in the winter. Got to the point where they could almost predict the time frame. The bigger point here, as I alluded to earlier, NASA was not really concerned. To them it was a simple fact that whatever was happening, was part of the natural cycle of our planet. But definitely worth looking into.

    They did find that the ozone was breaking down and the 'extra' oxygen was bonding with other things, most notably chlorine. But, as I was told, that still did not account for the readings from several decades prior.

    Now here is the thing I remembered that was very interesting. I can't explain it, was probably told the answer at the time, because I would have asked. One of the lead guys was so dis-interested in the politics, because, scientifically, it really was not a big deal. He went on to say, all we have to do to counter any chlorine from refrigerant in the stratosphere is dump a bunch of propane (butane? maybe no difference in this case) up there and problem solved.

    I asked how much propane. He replied around three 747's worth. Provided the aircraft was completely gutted.

    You see, from the stand point of the scientists', there was not really a problem. Now for the admin at NASA, I'm sure they had to play the game, simply to get funding to stay alive and continue doing what they love to do.

    And the wheel turns...... (please, this is trying to be a scientific discussion, not politics)

    So, you're implying that because of politics and money, we continue to further indoctrinate additional generations of HVAC technicians, as well as the rest of the civilized world, into the belief that CFC's and HCFC's are evil because of incomplete, or bad science?

    It's easy to say something like that, and honestly, I bend that way too, but it's extremely difficult to challenge someone who disputes your claim without the science to back up your belief.

    Honestly, (I'll say it again), I think, after all these years, this is why I have never been able to find anyone, with the proper credentials, to speak up and agree with what we believe is the truth, or shut us down with factual verified data.

    I suspect today there are many other environmental issues that should be given the same scrutiny before so many of us blindly accept.

  11. #51
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    Sadly, yes, politics are at the root of your question(s). Nothing I can do about that. Or what you choose to believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    And the wheel turns...... (please, this is trying to be a scientific discussion, not politics)

    So, you're implying that because of politics and money, we continue to further indoctrinate additional generations of HVAC technicians, as well as the rest of the civilized world, into the belief that CFC's and HCFC's are evil because of incomplete, or bad science?

    It's easy to say something like that, and honestly, I bend that way too, but it's extremely difficult to challenge someone who disputes your claim without the science to back up your belief.

    Honestly, (I'll say it again), I think, after all these years, this is why I have never been able to find anyone, with the proper credentials, to speak up and agree with what we believe is the truth, or shut us down with factual verified data.

    I suspect today there are many other environmental issues that should be given the same scrutiny before so many of us blindly accept.
    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artrose View Post
    And the wheel turns...... (please, this is trying to be a scientific discussion, not politics)

    So, you're implying that because of politics and money, we continue to further indoctrinate additional generations of HVAC technicians, as well as the rest of the civilized world, into the belief that CFC's and HCFC's are evil because of incomplete, or bad science?

    It's easy to say something like that, and honestly, I bend that way too, but it's extremely difficult to challenge someone who disputes your claim without the science to back up your belief.

    Honestly, (I'll say it again), I think, after all these years, this is why I have never been able to find anyone, with the proper credentials, to speak up and agree with what we believe is the truth, or shut us down with factual verified data.

    I suspect today there are many other environmental issues that should be given the same scrutiny before so many of us blindly accept.
    Then the question is maybe your truth has holes also. And if your looking for "proper credentials" why are you looking here?
    About "how the Coriolis force effects our atmosphere" it's taught in atmosphere studies 101. I wouldn't expect the average person to have any reason to come in contact with the phenomenon unless they wonder why the ocean is so cold on the West coast and warmer on the East. Maybe an explanation of how/why refrigerants mix won't fit your personal science.
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