Need your help to replace an aging Carrier heat pump and air handler - option review

[SWslinger]

Hello, and thank you all in advance for your replies and comments. I made a similar post earlier but didn't have all my facts together so after doing alot of research I've got my facts together so y'all can help me out.

The situation:
I live in a 3 story approx 1,400 sq/ft towhnhouse (built in 1979) in Northern Virginia. We typically experience hot/humid summers and mild winters. My current 2 ton Carrier heat pump is 15 years old paired with a 24 year old air handler. I've decided to replace it ahead of the system failing during the coming hotter months. It also seems there are discounts/rebates associated with replacing during the low season. My main issues are it's age and likeliness it will fail and it struggling to get cold air to the 3rd floor (master bedroom floor) during the hotter months. Because it struggles to get cold air to the 3rd floor I compensate by setting the thermostat lower which makes my finished basement and 2nd floor feel like a meat locker during the hotter months. I've been told my ducts are inefficient and the ducts that go up to the 3rd floor are far from the main blower making it difficult to get air up to the 3rd floor.

I had 5 local and highly reputable providers come in to provide estimates and have narrowed it down to the two providers I feel were most thorough and based on the aggregate of their reviews across several platforms like Angies List, Yelp, FB, Google reviews I believe they are most likely to do the best job installing the new system. They both come highly recommended by the manufacturers they would be installing.

Current Setup:
15 yr old heat pump - Carrier 38YRA024
24 yr old air handler - Carrier FK4CNF003
Original Cooling capacity - 24,800 BTU
Original Heating capacity - 24,600 BTU

Priciest Option:
The Lennox signature series system (AHRI 201841618):
Cooling capacity is 24,400
Heating capacity is 22,400

2nd Priciest Option:
The Lennox elite series system (AHRI 202565687):
Cooling capacity is 24,000
Heating capacity is 21,800

Least Pricey Option:
The Carrier Performance series systems (AHRI 9156931):
Cooling Capacity is 23,800
Heating Capacity is 24,000

Questions:

What has been your experience installing and maintaining these systems? Do you prefer one of these systems over the other?

Should I be concerned about the lower BTUs on the proposed system from the original system?

In your opinion is a lengthy 5-10 year labor warranty a good thing or not necessary and just inflates the price?

Is the Lennox Signature and it's communicating thermostat and advanced dehumidifcation features noticeable in terms of comfort or more of a marketing tactic?

What in the world does semi-variable mean versus fully variable? What difference does it make in terms of comfort to the home?

[pecmsg]

Concentrate more on the installing contractor and less on the name on the box's.


Has anyone preformed a Manual "J" load / loss calculation, probably not? Get one done before purchasing anything!
Has anyone measured and calculated the Duct system, Probably not? Get a Manual "D" performed before purchasing anything! Issues on the 3rd floor is probably due to duct design!

[SWslinger]

Thanks for the reply. They both measured the ducts but did not perform a manual “J” load loss calculation. When asked they both replied that it was performed on the “front end” and they sized the unit according to the ducts in place as well as the system they are replacing.

[pecmsg]

Townhouses, Condos, Tract homes are notorious for one size fits all! Much cheaper for the GC and installing contractor, ducts included!

Are there units on both sides, above, below?

1400 Sq Ft 3 Floors?

[SWslinger]

Units are side by side. I should have mentioned I’m a middle unit and have no issues heating the house in cooler months and likely benefit from my two neighbors. The house when purchased was 1150 sq ft on the top 2 floors before I finished the basement which I believe added roughly 350 more sq ft. The basement if not a walkout in case that matters.

[BaldLoonie]

What has been your experience installing and maintaining these systems? Do you prefer one of these systems over the other?

As we always say, best system is the one installed the best. You are looking at 3 similar but different systems. Dave's Signature is a really nice 18 SEER unit with a variable speed air handler and the iComfort control. I bet it is pricey. 18 SEER, 15 EER, 10 HSPF. Only issue is these efficient units are so expensive that the savings especially with a small unit in a small space is minimal and the unit could be in the scrap pile before you get near to paying for the premium. The Elite 15 is rated at 16 SEER, 13 EER, 9 HSPF so just a bit less efficient. Odds are annual savings aren't that great. Carrier is 15 SEER, 12 EER, 8.5 HSPF so lowest of the bunch.

Should I be concerned about the lower BTUs on the proposed system from the original system?

No big deal

In your opinion is a lengthy 5-10 year labor warranty a good thing or not necessary and just inflates the price?

Find out who is covering that warranty and any fine print that screws you. Too many warranty companies have gone out of biz, usually due to dishonesty than anything else. In 2009 a big one, Equigard, shut down - again something fishy - don't know the whole story. We dealers got paid peanuts on the claims we've been filing with the insurance company covering for it and they go out of their way to deny coverage. We've eaten a lot of it rather than make the customer pay. Not likely common.

Is the Lennox Signature and it's communicating thermostat and advanced dehumidifcation features noticeable in terms of comfort or more of a marketing tactic?


Communicating controls like the iComfort are great. Pricey but do a lot more to dehumidify, control airflow, report problems than a generic thermostat. If you go the top Lennox, I'd use that control.

What in the world does semi-variable mean versus fully variable? What difference does it make in terms of comfort to the home?

Somebody made that term up! I think they are comparing the motors of the 3 air handlers. The top Lennox and the Carrier have variable speed motors. Or maybe it is better explained calling them constant airflow. You tell the electronics how much air you want moved and they try to maintain that airflow by varying the motor speed. Works great up to a point like too many vents closed or a caked shut filter. The Elite Lennox uses a constant torque motor. They have normally several speed taps the installer sets as needed but they don't monitor conditions. If vents are closed or the filter plugs up, you lose airflow. These 2 types of motors are what you need to get high SEER such as 15 and above. They use notably less juice.

[SWslinger]

What has been your experience installing and maintaining these systems? Do you prefer one of these systems over the other?

As we always say, best system is the one installed the best. You are looking at 3 similar but different systems. Dave's Signature is a really nice 18 SEER unit with a variable speed air handler and the iComfort control. I bet it is pricey. 18 SEER, 15 EER, 10 HSPF. Only issue is these efficient units are so expensive that the savings especially with a small unit in a small space is minimal and the unit could be in the scrap pile before you get near to paying for the premium. The Elite 15 is rated at 16 SEER, 13 EER, 9 HSPF so just a bit less efficient. Odds are annual savings aren't that great. Carrier is 15 SEER, 12 EER, 8.5 HSPF so lowest of the bunch.

Should I be concerned about the lower BTUs on the proposed system from the original system?

No big deal

In your opinion is a lengthy 5-10 year labor warranty a good thing or not necessary and just inflates the price?

Find out who is covering that warranty and any fine print that screws you. Too many warranty companies have gone out of biz, usually due to dishonesty than anything else. In 2009 a big one, Equigard, shut down - again something fishy - don't know the whole story. We dealers got paid peanuts on the claims we've been filing with the insurance company covering for it and they go out of their way to deny coverage. We've eaten a lot of it rather than make the customer pay. Not likely common.

Is the Lennox Signature and it's communicating thermostat and advanced dehumidifcation features noticeable in terms of comfort or more of a marketing tactic?


Communicating controls like the iComfort are great. Pricey but do a lot more to dehumidify, control airflow, report problems than a generic thermostat. If you go the top Lennox, I'd use that control.

What in the world does semi-variable mean versus fully variable? What difference does it make in terms of comfort to the home?

Somebody made that term up! I think they are comparing the motors of the 3 air handlers. The top Lennox and the Carrier have variable speed motors. Or maybe it is better explained calling them constant airflow. You tell the electronics how much air you want moved and they try to maintain that airflow by varying the motor speed. Works great up to a point like too many vents closed or a caked shut filter. The Elite Lennox uses a constant torque motor. They have normally several speed taps the installer sets as needed but they don't monitor conditions. If vents are closed or the filter plugs up, you lose airflow. These 2 types of motors are what you need to get high SEER such as 15 and above. They use notably less juice.

Thanks for detailed answer as it was very helpful trying to decode what I've been told from the various dealers. I think either installer will do a good job so not a bad choice between the two.

The Lennox dealer offering the 5 yr labor on the Elite series and the 10 yr labor on the Signature series says the labor warranty is covered in house. They are a large well established shop in my neck of the woods. Is that still a concern? I'm torn because this provider has serviced my current unit, installed several components that have improved the system while I contemplated replacing it over the past few years. They've always done a good job but what they are recommending is substantially more expensive and their justification is if you go with a lower end unit you'll end up paying for it down the line with repairs.

The Carrier dealer was pretty transparent saying that due to the inefficiencies of my townhouses 1979 duct work design it's always going to be a struggle to get cold air to the 3rd floor and the best bet is to replace the system and use it in conjunction with ceiling fans to trying and mix the air better. They also identified they could fix an inefficiently constructed basement return and help me better work the dampers to redirect air flow to the to floor in the hotter months. Outside we'd have to demo part of the finished basement and run a new duct upstairs which would be expensive.

Questions:

What would a dealer mean when they say they warranty the labor in house?

If both units were installed properly do you think the Lennox Signature would justify it's higher price tag in comfort?

I forgot to mention I have pretty bad allergies so we keep the fan constantly on in the current system to keep the air circulating/filtering. Is there any concern doing that moving forward with these systems?

Since I'm unfamiliar with with the airflow, is one of the mentioned systems going to be substantially better at pushing air up to the 3rd floor based on their specs?

AHRI Indoor Full Load Air Volume:
Carrier Performance - 700
Lennox Elite - 820
Lennox Signature - 800

[SWslinger]

Concentrate more on the installing contractor and less on the name on the box's.


Has anyone preformed a Manual "J" load / loss calculation, probably not? Get one done before purchasing anything!
Has anyone measured and calculated the Duct system, Probably not? Get a Manual "D" performed before purchasing anything! Issues on the 3rd floor is probably due to duct design!

Question on the duct design. It's been noted that the duct design on the house is old and inefficient. Changing it would require substantial demolition which I'm not interested in.

Since the ducts are not designed well is it important to have more air flow from the systems? Since I'm unfamiliar with with the airflow, is one of the mentioned systems going to be substantially better at pushing air up to the 3rd floor based on their specs?

AHRI Indoor Full Load Air Volume:
Carrier Performance - 700
Lennox Elite - 820
Lennox Signature - 800

[BaldLoonie]

In house warranty means he covers your labor himself. He closes down or you have a falling out, there goes your warranty.

I don't see the 18 SEER being worth it in increased comfort or energy savings. Going with the 16 SEER ask about upgrading to the CBA25UHV which is the Merit line variable speed. May not be any more since it is 1 grade down from the Elite.

The variable speed blowers run at 1/2 speed on constant fan. It is not drafty and it is inaudible. Also uses very little electricity.

[SWslinger]

In house warranty means he covers your labor himself. He closes down or you have a falling out, there goes your warranty.

I don't see the 18 SEER being worth it in increased comfort or energy savings. Going with the 16 SEER ask about upgrading to the CBA25UHV which is the Merit line variable speed. May not be any more since it is 1 grade down from the Elite.

The variable speed blowers run at 1/2 speed on constant fan. It is not drafty and it is inaudible. Also uses very little electricity.

Much appreciated. Should I be concerned about the lower air volume rate on the Carrier Performance system? Probably my largest concern is getting more cold air up to my 3rd floor.

[rider77]

It’s unreasonable to expect a single unzoned system to maintain a constant temperature on multiple different stories.
The system isn’t at fault for not maintaining temperature on the third floor.

[SWslinger]

It’s unreasonable to expect a single unzoned system to maintain a constant temperature on multiple different stories.
The system isn’t at fault for not maintaining temperature on the third floor.

Totally get that. Just attempting to minimize the temperature difference with the ducts that are in place.

[rider77]

That depends on the ductwork and insulation.
A difference of over 10* would not be unheard of with poor insulation and no returns upstairs.

[SWslinger]

That depends on the ductwork and insulation.
A difference of over 10* would not be unheard of with poor insulation and no returns upstairs.

Got it. We have in floor duct work upstairs with a return in the hallway ceiling. Our difference isn’t that extreme but the airflow is weak.

[rider77]

Got it. We have in floor duct work upstairs with a return in the hallway ceiling. Our difference isn’t that extreme but the airflow is weak.

If the ductwork is designed and installed correctly, you should never hear or feel airflow.