The official 'I want an I-DRSA' thread...

[LEO ASHRAE]

He... Lower what price!!??
GA lower your price!!!

I curious. What do you think a fair price would be? Say, for the manifold (complete with the quarter-turn valve manifold, head, and hoses), two wireless clamp thermometers, and two wireless psychrometer probes?

[ga-hvac-tech]

I curious. What do you think a fair price would be? Say, for the manifold (complete with the quarter-turn valve manifold, head, and hoses), two wireless clamp thermometers, and two wireless psychrometer probes?

When I started this thread...
The intention was to start conversation and see if there was demand for the project...
Encourage Doug to get busy and build it!

And the folks that READ the first post (rather than skimmed it and assumed*remember about assuming) understood the $2grand was a fictitious number to start conversation.

Now Iceman...
Personally...
I would like to hear your estimate of what the new I-DRSA should cost also...

Remember that GA's $2G was a fictitious number.

[itsiceman]

Who am I to say what it "should" cost.

If it is a better unit it WOULD sell at a higher price than the highest priced unit that guys are buying. If not is WOULD sell for less.

[LEO ASHRAE]

Who am I to say what it "should" cost.

If it is a better unit it WOULD sell at a higher price than the highest priced unit that guys are buying. If not is WOULD sell for less.

I didn't ask you what it "should" cost, simply what "YOU" think is a fair price.

[itsiceman]

GA asked should

I didn't ask you what it "should" cost, simply what "YOU" think is a fair price.

15 thousand!!
5K for just the paradigm

In Canadian large bills of course!!!

[ga-hvac-tech]

GA asked should

15 thousand!!
5K for just the paradigm

In Canadian large bills of course!!!

Hmmm....

Isa thissa an offer I cannotta refuse...

[itsiceman]

Does it sound ridiculous?
Nobody even knows what it can do yet.
Features have purposely left out.
How could anyone say what they would pay for something they don't even know what it can do for them?

[Doug Lockhart]

Does it sound ridiculous?
Nobody even knows what it can do yet.
Features have purposely left out.
How could anyone say what they would pay for something they don't even know what it can do for them?

Iceman,
This is exactly why it's pointless to spend another nickel and another minute on it. They trash it right out of the box without virtually any knowledge at all (and these are troubleshooters that KNOW you shouldn't ever troubleshoot from behind the windshield or phone!), dream up conspiracy theories that compare us to an $89 BlueRay DVD without a SINGLE sober thought on what it could do for the industry them, their companies or their customers (y'know, the ones that feed them)......
They are, however, firmly planted in the knowledge that our customers must pay a fair wage (larger = better) for them and an apprentice likely too but before they even ask or investigate, have it trashed like a POS $19 calculator. I saw that 30 years ago, we needed to suit up and show up like a professional and should we have an HVAC/R Information Stream available to us, we'd have present and future revenue streams along with predictive maintenance and replacements on 100% of the equipment that is out there now......not 26%. The EPA has identified that 74% of the equipment out there is maladjusted in some form or another.....but WE and the CUSTOMER don't know about it.........so we'll stay ignorant as well as the customer and fight of the dime job in the race for the bottom price with unqualified competition and b!tch all the way down to bankruptcy for it like the other 40% a year.
It amazed me back then how people will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on 'neat sh!t' but we in the HVAC/R industry 'dumby' everything down to a poor profit item (with 3 generation old technology) and wonder why we can't afford the kid's College tuition when it comes 18 years after they're born. It amazes me 10X more now......look at the junk in a customer's 2 car garage that he can't get a bike into!!! We need to change out mindset as we 'market to cheap' and we need to 'market to neat'.....sell the sizzle and not so much the steak.

Now GA and LEO can yell all they want and criticize me all they want but you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If we worried about every #@$^ing thing that 'could' harm/set us back/cost us everyday, we'd truly be knuckle dragging morons hiding in caves all day. Look at accompanying industries and how advanced they are compared to us. As I said before, Google makes NOTHING/ZERO/NADDA but they sure aren't having problems paying their kids tuition!
No point in investing in a ~$1500-3000 expandable device that could hire you 10 more techs that generate $300k-500k each more a year 'cause $2000 is WAY too much.....I'm gonna stick with my $29 on sale analogues......cause they do me just fine. Ignorance is bliss.

When you do what you did; you get what you got!!!! Carry on. Fire Away.....but after you put your tin hats on.

[daggeroth]

I agree how this industry has gone down the toilet, I loose jobs all the time because I refuse to lower my standards and moral. I'm sure I could make more money if I only fixed what is broken (at best) and not why it broke in the first place. In the end, I have decided these customers were not for me. What keeps me going are the customers that understand, they do exist and I try to take care of them to the best of my ability.

If we all give up, all is lost. It will always be harder for me to do what is right, so tempting to convert to the dark side. I battle with this everyday, but i'm still trying to learn new ways to better myself as a so called hvac professional.

[Doug Lockhart]

I agree how this industry has gone down the toilet, I loose jobs all the time because I refuse to lower my standards and moral. I'm sure I could make more money if I only fixed what is broken (at best) and not why it broke in the first place. In the end, I have decided these customers were not for me. What keeps me going are the customers that understand, they do exist.

If we all give up, all is lost. It will always be harder for me to do what is right, so tempting to convert to the dark side. I battle with this everyday, but i'm still trying to learn new ways to better myself as a so called hvac professional.

41 years ago today I started doing service calls in my own company after completing exams from my 2 years Air Condition Engineering Technology course http://www.sait.ca/programs-and-cour...nic-apprentice .....and I've always sold on 'Value' not 'Price' for the price guys are in the race to the bottom like water swirling down a toilet. I do high end A/A, GHP, GHP/VRF, Custom Process Cooling and Custom Heat Pumps (Aquaculture) and leave the 'race' to the other guys. Put 2 of my 3 daughters through private school, all 3 through university and fed me for 41 years......along with $1.6 cash into DCI......but it's hard to stick to you guns and 'lead by example' rather than promotion......

[vin lashon]

I am happy to read that you can appreciate my concerns. They were not offered out of malice, but to suggest caution. To be clear, I would also very much like to see this tool made. Heck, if he lowers the price I'll buy one. It looks like a great tool, with lots of potential. I just hope the implementation of the record keeping feature is done carefully and with consideration of what can happen if that information is not secure and, that this information is used only for it's intended purpose of helping the customer maintain his HVACR system at a state of maximum efficiency...nothing more, nothing less.

I think data logging is an important feature, but only for local consideration. I would be vehemently opposed to any logging feature that 'phoned home', and would not buy in if I couldn't definitively turn it off.

That would mean the ability to operate the system without the need for any type of internet connection, which has provides more benefit than privacy, since many live in areas where wireless internet connectivity is sporadic.

Those who want to store it in the cloud are welcome to it. I'd rather download it to my PC for assessment and emailing to the customer.

[Doug Lockhart]

I think data logging is an important feature, but only for local consideration. I would be vehemently opposed to any logging feature that 'phoned home', and would not buy in if I couldn't definitively turn it off.

That would mean the ability to operate the system without the need for any type of internet connection, which has provides more benefit than privacy, since many live in areas where wireless internet connectivity is sporadic.

Those who want to store it in the cloud are welcome to it. I'd rather download it to my PC for assessment and emailing to the customer.

You just eliminated the utilities that would be paying again for this in the 'verification' programs. The information they were getting from techs on the initial programs were dog crap!! In most cases blatantly falsified. Thats' why they have quit these programs almost in entirety.
After setting up the 'service tool' (not the leave behind black box that would have on-going encryption), it would let the readings stabilize (obviously always in flux) then send the data to the utility's cloud/server/whatever and if chosen/allowed to be sent to your server etc. Otherwise a data dump to your computer when you got back into the office then sent that day sent as an encrypted file. Obviously there would be releases and NDAs etc involved but that's all done every day when you upgrade your Windows/OSX.

[daggeroth]

I agree, it's an uphill battle. You have more years experience than my age. I tell everyone I learned how not to do air conditioning and this is very true. It was so hard for me to find good advice and still is on how to do my job correctly. I'm getting better but still have so much to learn.

What has always helped me are the people that are smarter than myself. If it was not for you guys, I would still be just like all the others that have no clue or just don't care what they are doing. If the people that I depend on to lean and better myself as a professional give up, what am I supposed to do.

[vin lashon]

You just eliminated the utilities that would be paying again for this in the 'verification' programs. The information they were getting from techs on the initial programs were dog crap!! In most cases blatantly falsified. Thats' why they have quit these programs almost in entirety.
After setting up the 'service tool' (not the leave behind black box that would have on-going encryption), it would let the readings stabilize (obviously always in flux) then send the data to the utility's cloud/server/whatever and if chosen/allowed to be sent to your server etc. Otherwise a data dump to your computer when you got back into the office then sent that day sent as an encrypted file. Obviously there would be releases and NDAs etc involved but that's all done every day when you upgrade your Windows/OSX.

I can believe that. I really don't know enough about the project to understand the intricacies or pro/con ratio of the data logging. However, privacy and perpetual connection, tracking, etc. are a real concern and out of hand these days. Definitely a plus if you are accused of murder and the data logging provides an alibi. Definitely not, if it proves their case

I guess the assessment comes when it all comes together.

[Doug Lockhart]

I agree, it's an uphill battle. You have more years experience than my age. I tell everyone I learned how not to do air conditioning and this is very true. It was so hard for me to find good advice and still is on how to do my job correctly. I'm getting better but still have so much to learn.

What has always helped me are the people that are smarter than myself. If it was not for you guys, I would still be just like all the others that have no clue or just don't care what they are doing. If the people that I depend on to lean and better myself as a professional give up, what am I supposed to do.

I guess I should have seen the issues that GA and LEO raised as Canadians typically don't understand 2 main things about Americans. The first is the attraction/need for guns and the 2nd is the intense dislike and suspicion of your government. It is at a visceral vehement level that surpasses even right wing jerks like me (who hates everything government). Because of that you have no National Government Standards/Administrated apprenticeship program. Daggeroth, the apprenticeship system is so cool. You get some 'masculine' hazing and incredible advice that keeps you alive and shortcutting stupid mistakes by having the 'book' learning once a year for 4 or 5 years at 8 weeks/yr and then you work side by side with cagy old veterans who harden you, keep you alive and show you all the 'unpublished' short cuts. We brag (never to them!) about our apprentices and make sure we can one up another journeyman/company with "our guy" and have deep pride in their advancement and safety. We basically 'father them' and it's a bond lasting for lifetime.
FYI, my old boss/journeyman Ivan, phoned me last night from Calgary, he's 71 and I'm 61 but we still are best of friends and he taught me a TON of stuff at Honeywell. We talked for over an hour last night and I will have dinner with him likely this summer when I visit my daughters in Calgary. Problem is, guys are so portable now and don't stay at a company for very long combined with the fact no customer wants to pay for an apprentice, we lose this part of the trade.
Daggeroth, find an experienced tradesman with both the technical and personal attributes you want.......work with him and stick with him.....it's a partnership you'll never regret and remember in all aspects for a lifetime.

[LEO ASHRAE]

I guess I should have seen the issues that GA and LEO raised as Canadians typically don't understand 2 main things about Americans. The first is the attraction/need for guns and the 2nd is the intense dislike and suspicion of your government.

Of all the psychobabble crap, this is the limit. So, you are saying you needn't condescend to answer our questions because we have a second amendment and you don't? You sanctimonious...

Brent: It's a good thing you "...don't have any skin in this venture". Doug has just confirmed to us that he's peddled his mountain bike round the bend and over the edge!

[Doug Lockhart]

Of all the psychobabble crap, this is the limit. So, you are saying you needn't condescend to answer our questions because we have a second amendment and you don't? You sanctimonious...

Brent: It's a good thing you "...don't have any skin in this venture". Doug has just confirmed to us that he's peddled his mountain bike round the bend and over the edge!

Thanx Leo.......that's pretty much an endorsement of common sense and living in reality when being condemned by the likes of you.
THANK YOU LEO..

[ga-hvac-tech]

Honestly... have not read all the posts since this morning...
And a couple of us guys are taking the neighborhood kids to see 'Transformers' this evening... so will not get to read much until late.

What I am gonna do... is ask this question:
Doug: Have you experienced any of the following:
*Military
*Being in a confrontational situation where potentially your safety/life or the safety/life of someone you care about is at stake
*Dealing with criminals
Most of us horrible gun toting Americans... have been in at least one... some two... and some all three.

If one has been there... they just understand.
Will comment more later.

It is time to take care of the neighborhood kids who do not have fathers...

[itsiceman]

I'd like to know if GA liked any of the Transformers movies and if you think the latest was worth the price of admission.

[LEO ASHRAE]

Honestly... have not read all the posts since this morning...
And a couple of us guys are taking the neighborhood kids to see 'Transformers' this evening... so will not get to read much until late.

What I am gonna do... is ask this question:
Doug: Have you experienced any of the following:
*Military
*Being in a confrontational situation where potentially your safety/life or the safety/life of someone you care about is at stake
*Dealing with criminals
Most of us horrible gun toting Americans... have been in at least one... some two... and some all three.

If one has been there... they just understand.
Will comment more later.

It is time to take care of the neighborhood kids who do not have fathers...

GA,

Don't bother. This guy really, truly, thinks we are irrational troglodytes because some of us have...GUNS! I've encountered this before. We will be marginalized and ridiculed by people like Doug because some of us are part of a group who have ideals and beliefs that are anathema to him. He doesn't understand us. He doesn't want to understand our concerns! And, he certainly will not discuss them (rationally). He would just as soon "we just go away". He can't grasp the fact that some of us have first-hand knowledge of facts which formed a foundation for our ideals. He is unshakenly convinced that, if something that worries us hasn't happened to him, it just isn't a concern!

At this point I am convinced that offering additional rebuttal is a waste of bandwidth. I don't need his tool, and I certainly don't need any more of his sanctimonious, elitist, crap. I'll wait until Jim Borgman and the other guys at Redfish come out with another useful tool, without any social upheaval necessary for it's implementation.

LEO