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Thread: BACRouter from China

  1. #41
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    Can I use this Router with Alerton Envision 2.6,Before I am using Contemprory Controls BAS Router.Thanks.

  2. #42
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    Most likely yes.

  3. #43
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    Results of some testing I have been working on to compare this guy to other commercially available MSTP routers. Using 3 different Niagara stations, 2 windows, 1x J8000 each polling ~1000 points (subscribed with logs) and tuning policy set to 1s on all the points. So total ~3000 points trying to poll every second from 14 MSTP devices that span 4 different manufactures. Tested under 4 different settings for Max info frames (20,50,100,200) to see what impact if any this had. The MSTP trunk is basically maxed right out in this setup. This compares the BACRouter, Trend IQ4/NC, and a Reliable MPS. Will be adding CC BASRouter, J8 (acting as MSTP router only) and maybe J6 at some point.

    Polling stats are the avg poll times as reported by Niagara's poll service. Everything else is stats generated with Wireshark accept the token pass time. Didn't have time to whip up something to calculate the average token pass time (time for one complete pass of the token). Went by hand looked for realistic patterns in the capture using WS timing info between few typical passes.

    Looking it all over and trying to say one is "faster" than the other is rather difficult. What really measures the true speed exactly? Personally, my thoughts are the Niagara's avg poll time. Lower that is, lower its busy time will be and things always seem faster the lower poll & busy times are. By that measure the MPS is the winner. Not a huge performance difference between all three. Found it interesting the MPS has the lowest poll times while not moving the most data (MSTP & IP bytes/sec). It did have the highest packets/sec which is typically what IP routers are measured against.

    I would also note that the BACrouter with its default settings for Max Info Frames preformed pretty crap compared to the others. Poll times were 2x higher than with 20MIF and max occupy time OFF. Once MIF was increased things picked up with occupy time ON. Not sure what occupy time is doing exactly. With it ON, the number of packets the BACRouter will pass per token is variable and usually much fewer than with it OFF.

    Also noted how many poll for master packets I found. The MSTP trunk addressing is pretty hacked up. I rewire it often, mix in new devices, etc and haven't bothered to keep them all perfect and adjust the max masters every time. So max masters is 127 on all devices. Addresses for the 14 devices are: 2, 3, 4, 11, 13, 14, 26, 30, 31, 32, 33, 72, 127, 128. Lots of gaps here, oh the horror….

    Noticed pretty quick the busier the network, the less PFM/Max masters effects things. If you have a busy network, there is a lot less PFM going on. The token gets tied up with chatty devices and pass slower regardless how MIF is set. If the network isn’t doing anything, the token will pass much faster and PFMs will be a larger percentage of the overall traffic. Even in my worst case, I had little over 1 PFM per second with an average of 47 packets/s. So, what could you possibly gain here? 1.3 PFMs out of 47 packets, that’s < 3% of the total packets.

    Guess if your network isn’t doing anything and you need near PLC speed reaction between peers, setting max masters might gain you a tiny bit. Real networks, doubt one would notice a difference assuming all devices are handling it properly.

    Anyway. I some point I'll have all the capture files available for those that want to take a peek when I get a chance.

    For $$$$ this guy seems to hold its own against routers that cost many times that.

    Name:  BACRouter Stats.png
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    Last edited by Dad; 06-27-2018 at 01:41 PM.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

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  5. #44
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    contemp controls great for the support , I have a BAC router on my home panel , been bullet proof
    Keep it simple to keep it cool!

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanbyyourword View Post
    contemp controls great for the support , I have a BAC router on my home panel , been bullet proof
    We use the BASRT-B from time to time, will be adding that to the list when I get my hands on it. If we have one floating in the shop or upcoming project with them, I'll snatch it long enough to test.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

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  8. #46
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    BASRT-B for the home board acquired. Thanks leakcheck!.

    Will test soon.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

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  10. #47
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    Np! I dont mind clearing out the spare parts room in the house anyway haha.
    And Thank you!

  11. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Results of some testing I have been working on to compare this guy to other commercially available MSTP routers. Using 3 different Niagara stations, 2 windows, 1x J8000 each polling ~1000 points (subscribed with logs) and tuning policy set to 1s on all the points. So total ~3000 points trying to poll every second from 14 MSTP devices that span 4 different manufactures. Tested under 4 different settings for Max info frames (20,50,100,200) to see what impact if any this had. The MSTP trunk is basically maxed right out in this setup. This compares the BACRouter, Trend IQ4/NC, and a Reliable MPS. Will be adding CC BASRouter, J8 (acting as MSTP router only) and maybe J6 at some point....

    For $$$ this guy seems to hold its own against routers that cost many times that.

    ...
    Great post
    Last edited by kontrolphreak; 06-27-2018 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Pricing in post.

  12. #49
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    If anyone has a used KMC5051 or LIP bacnet router they are willing to sell or even possibly rent shoot me a PM. Wouldn't mind seeing how others fair as well if the price is right.

  13. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    If anyone has a used KMC5051 or LIP bacnet router they are willing to sell or even possibly rent shoot me a PM. Wouldn't mind seeing how others fair as well if the price is right.
    If you want to setup a thread on testing like this I'll get you an LIP. I'd like to also talk to you about certain things about Tbox loading and if you like to test something out there because I got an instance where I'm burying one of three and would like to know a little more.

    I see there is a decent amount of effort involved here.

  14. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterDuck View Post
    If you want to setup a thread on testing like this I'll get you an LIP.
    I'll take you up on that. Planning on something going over my test setup

    Quote Originally Posted by BetterDuck View Post
    I'd like to also talk to you about certain things about Tbox loading and if you like to test something out there because I got an instance where I'm burying one of three and would like to know a little more.
    Would like to hear what seems to be taking it down. Will have to be a couple weeks out. Counting the minutes to some vaca time now. Once I get back, I'll get in touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by BetterDuck View Post
    I see there is a decent amount of effort involved here.
    Been messing with it on and off for prob 6 months now. Not just testing this router, but getting a good setup, getting additional hardware, testing and then verifying the numbers I think I have are correct and somewhat repeatable. Easily have well over a grand and hundred hours tied up into now.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  15. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterDuck View Post
    If you want to setup a thread on testing like this
    One part of the puzzle, the IP capture side hardware

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....8#post25530598

    Stupid simple to setup in the line and just reboot to get the next capture. Clean capture, no hassle, easy to remotely extract. No issue with traffic 10x what is seen on a MSTP router.
    Last edited by orion242; 07-22-2018 at 07:24 PM.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  16. #53
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    [IMG]C:\Users\Parinya\Pictures\unnamed.png[/IMG]

    Please suggest me to do the manual add for mstp device,
    What is format data that I have to fill in to the "manual binding" field

  17. #54
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    In the manual binding input field, each line is a binding
    the format of each line as:
    MAC:ID

    for example:
    0:123456
    1:223333
    Carrier CCN Modbus/BACnet gateway
    BACnet router for BIP, MS/TP, Ethernet
    http://www.hvacrcontrol.com/?lang=en

  18. #55
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    Just had our first major problem with these routers; TLDR is it was a misconfiguration issue.

    Basically out of the box these have a BACnet ethernet network segment added by default, and what we need is BACnet/IP. So the startup tech concentrated in getting the info correct for the MS/TP network and the IP network, but left everything else untouched. Somehow this didn't create a problem right away but down the road a couple months later we had big troubles in connectivity FOR THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. Lots of routers weren't answering ping consistently and we falsely blamed IT on connectivity issues, but they pointed back to us. Looking deeper I found the router log in the server was saying the binding for the MSTP networks was moving around between different IP addresses a LOT. One IP was where it should be and the other was on another router completely. The only way I could think that would happen is if we had a circular route somehow, like the MS/TP networks were tied together. That wasn't the case here because those were in different buildings. Luckily I was able to log into the web GUI of the HVACR routers remotely and discovered the extra BACnet Ethernet network, at this point I realized these were all on the same network subnet and that's where the circular network came from. Delete extra network and problem resolved.

    As a side note on how things handle failures with a ton of traffic;
    -ALC routers have built in protection for circular routes and throttle the changes and reboot when things get to be too much, they still "mostly" worked while this was all going on. The loss of ping was them rebooting occasionally, or just taking a long time to answer.
    -The Contemporary Controls routers simply locked up in this case, no web GUI, no ping and required a power cycle to bring them back. Then they would crash again. Not ideal. One was down for hours after this was resolved while the other was over a day before we could get in the second building to reset it. Must be no watchdog on these, not great.
    -The HVACR controls router stayed up and allowed the GUI to take changes while this was ongoing, even though it was causing the issue, handled the situation very well IMO.


    HVACR control suggestion; don't add any networks out of the box. Make the tech add only what they need.

  19. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    Just had our first major problem with these routers; TLDR is it was a misconfiguration issue.

    Basically out of the box these have a BACnet ethernet network segment added by default, and what we need is BACnet/IP. So the startup tech concentrated in getting the info correct for the MS/TP network and the IP network, but left everything else untouched. Somehow this didn't create a problem right away but down the road a couple months later we had big troubles in connectivity FOR THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. Lots of routers weren't answering ping consistently and we falsely blamed IT on connectivity issues, but they pointed back to us. Looking deeper I found the router log in the server was saying the binding for the MSTP networks was moving around between different IP addresses a LOT. One IP was where it should be and the other was on another router completely. The only way I could think that would happen is if we had a circular route somehow, like the MS/TP networks were tied together. That wasn't the case here because those were in different buildings. Luckily I was able to log into the web GUI of the HVACR routers remotely and discovered the extra BACnet Ethernet network, at this point I realized these were all on the same network subnet and that's where the circular network came from. Delete extra network and problem resolved.

    As a side note on how things handle failures with a ton of traffic;
    -ALC routers have built in protection for circular routes and throttle the changes and reboot when things get to be too much, they still "mostly" worked while this was all going on. The loss of ping was them rebooting occasionally, or just taking a long time to answer.
    -The Contemporary Controls routers simply locked up in this case, no web GUI, no ping and required a power cycle to bring them back. Then they would crash again. Not ideal. One was down for hours after this was resolved while the other was over a day before we could get in the second building to reset it. Must be no watchdog on these, not great.
    -The HVACR controls router stayed up and allowed the GUI to take changes while this was ongoing, even though it was causing the issue, handled the situation very well IMO.


    HVACR control suggestion; don't add any networks out of the box. Make the tech add only what they need.
    Sometimes our default configuration cause circular route problem like your situation.
    We enable all networks by default because it's convenient to test before shipping. we will re-consider this decision.
    Thank your story and suggestion.
    Carrier CCN Modbus/BACnet gateway
    BACnet router for BIP, MS/TP, Ethernet
    http://www.hvacrcontrol.com/?lang=en

  20. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by lin View Post
    Sometimes our default configuration cause circular route problem like your situation.
    We enable all networks by default because it's convenient to test before shipping. we will re-consider this decision.
    Thank your story and suggestion.
    Thanks, that's a trivial change to delete all networks as a final step but might have helped here. It's hard to anticipate all the dumb things people will do with your product though.

    Honestly I'm pretty impressed overall, how things handle a fault is very important and this was fairly graceful for the HVACR router.

    By the way how is BTL coming along? Should be a walk in the park at this point.

  21. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    The Contemporary Controls routers simply locked up in this case, no web GUI, no ping and required a power cycle to bring them back. Then they would crash again. Not ideal.
    Sounds like an epic fail. I spent some time tonight hitting it with the Chipkin BACnet storm tool.

    Hitting it with ~16k RPM packets < 3sec, it seems to answer ~100 before it drops them and recovers for the next round. Pretty smooth, it has no hope of deal with this and just drops.

    The storm tool plays back the pcap file with your delay and when it hits the end, it pauses 10s. So at full blast the BASRT sees the first couple, starts to drop and then its in the delay to resend. Adding some delay between packets, keeps it far busier as you narrow in on the range that just overflows what it can handle.

    Putting a 50ms delay between packets.... Web page still works somewhat, but its sure looks like a processor bound right up. Pages come incomplete, extremely slow. Status page updates, forget about it. Ping handful of misses, max RTT 11ms
    Putting a 100ms delay between packets (about 2x faster than realtime in the original capture), its even more bound up. Many times the webpage is just a few links or the top bar logo. Ping rare miss, max RTT 7ms
    Putting a 200ms delay between packets, still pretty shaky. Ping solid 4ms RTT max.

    Let this pound away for a day and see what happens. It might be something related to the network messages under circular networks that totally locks it down. Seems respectable just under a ton of traffic, but certainly shows signs of stress. Changing settings would be a crap show.

    Status page that came up after about 20min of hammering on it. Note the B/IP In vs Out lol... Wireshark puts the received count more like 700K, so its missed a few.

    Name:  BASRT-B.png
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    Last edited by orion242; 04-15-2019 at 09:47 PM.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  22. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxBurn View Post
    By the way how is BTL coming along? Should be a walk in the park at this point.
    BTL certification is only valid to specified firmware version, our firmware is keeping upgrading. So have no plan for BTL yet.
    Carrier CCN Modbus/BACnet gateway
    BACnet router for BIP, MS/TP, Ethernet
    http://www.hvacrcontrol.com/?lang=en

  23. #60
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    We have some benchmarks for our router:
    http://www.hvacrcontrol.com/bacroute...-and-ethernet/

    I have some ideas to improve it, will implement it in next major upgrade.
    Carrier CCN Modbus/BACnet gateway
    BACnet router for BIP, MS/TP, Ethernet
    http://www.hvacrcontrol.com/?lang=en

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