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Thread: Honeywell Spyder programming software

  1. #21
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    That is exactly what I am talking about .

    Quote Originally Posted by tridiumtech View Post
    When I took a WEBIIs course, I learn the following about Spyderland:
    1) Objects are not Niagara objects (download required after program modification)
    2) Sypder does not permit comment text on the Control Program.
    1) This is beacause they are not Tridium controllers.
    They are basically ported CARE devices.

    2) Text block is a wire sheet object found in the 'util' folder of the spyder tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by tridiumtech View Post
    I've never done an actual Spyder commission job
    HAHAHA LOL.
    There you go.

    "I am going to tell you that these controllers are crap but I have never used one."

    Like I said, they are ok for what they are. They are also extremely competitive at their level where they sit in the marketplace.
    Obviously there are better, faster, more powerful controllers available. But these are far more expensive.

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  3. #22
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    prtadko

    You should be a 'Professional Member' - your comments are always 'pro' quality, albeit with a 'Dave Mustaine' style. ;-)

    BTY - those Spyder 'experience' comments came from HVAC-Talk techs who have experience with Spyders. I'm not
    trashing them, they just are what they are.

  4. #23
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    @ GLUQ.... to get to the non-"ILC" programming tools, you do have to get an AX licensed workbench....expect to spend $10K to get started with Niagara Cert., other training, signup fees, annual license, workbench seat(s), etc. etc. ... and that's after the local distributor and Honeywell approves. If you are looking at one project using Spyders, it may be worth contacting your local approved Honeywell control contractor? See: https://buildingcontrols.honeywell.c...commit=#scroll
    for a list of Ontario, CA "ACI" AND "BCS" contractors. And/or contact the local Honeywell commercial contractor support person to get some names of "BCA" (low volume dealers not listed in the link) Your local distributor should be able to get the Honeywell rep?

  5. #24
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    Thread Starter
    Thank you, that $10k figure is really what I needed to determine if it makes sense business-wise. I got the same information from a local Honeywell distributor yesterday, along with contact info for some contractors. Management will have to decide if we get a local Honeywell contractor, or change the controller.

    Thanks everyone for your answers and support.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tridiumtech View Post
    prtadko

    You should be a 'Professional Member' - your comments are always 'pro' quality, albeit with a 'Dave Mustaine' style. ;-)

    BTY - those Spyder 'experience' comments came from HVAC-Talk techs who have experience with Spyders. I'm not
    trashing them, they just are what they are.
    Thanks.
    Not sure if the Dave Mustaine style is a good thing but I will take it as a complement as he is pretty cool.
    Don't worry about trashing the controllers. I have trashed the Spyder numerous times on this very forum.
    But ultimately they are what they are.
    My car is a car. It drives on the road pretty well.
    If I decided to drive my car into the lake and try to take it for a sail it probably won't work so good.
    Most of the issues described on this forum regarding poor performance of the Spyder are when people what to do something with it that it isn't meant for.
    One example being it isn't a very good lighting controller as the program runs too slowly.
    That is very true.
    My 2 year old son isn't a very good pastry chef.
    I suppose your not really suppressed to hear that may son can't cook.
    Don't use the Spyder for something that needs fast execution of the program.
    For fan coil units or small unitary HVAC applications like running a pump it is adequate.

  7. #26
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    I have not used spyders, have heard they are pretty competitively priced but to me seems like having to match firmware version with the tool version is the biggest kick in the gut there is.
    Just curious, how can a new contractor with a newer or older version of the tool is gonna connect to an existing spyder?, and how is he gonna know what version of tool was the spyder programmed with and where to get that specific version?, seems very cumbersome to me but I probably don't know all the facts.
    cheers.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by amigo View Post
    I have not used spyders, have heard they are pretty competitively priced but to me seems like having to match firmware version with the tool version is the biggest kick in the gut there is.
    Just curious, how can a new contractor with a newer or older version of the tool is gonna connect to an existing spyder?, and how is he gonna know what version of tool was the spyder programmed with and where to get that specific version?, seems very cumbersome to me but I probably don't know all the facts.
    cheers.
    I've come across spyders once. And I had to make some changes to a few of them. I was able to default the platform password on the jace, then copy all the modules out onto my workbench. I'm not sure if it's typical that all the modules I needed were on there, but that was my case.
    Friends don't let friends Lon.

  9. #28
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    Matching tool firmware version is only applicable to connecting to the controller through the Jace. Then the AX firmware and tool versions you use should match those installed in the Jace. The tool version can be obtained by looking at the Jace modules list. The correct tool can then be obtained by copying it from the Jace.

    If you connect directly to the controllers without going through the Jace then the tool is backwards compatible. As long as you have the latest version there is no issue.
    If however your tool is older than the Lynx then there may be firmware issues. You can see however the Lynx issue number printed sidways on the ID label. The higher the number the newer the Lynx version so the newer the tool is required.
    In the UK I think the newest ones come with a 5 on them so you would need at least tool 6.1.1. I think. It ain't that hard really.
    Each version of AX has an associated Lynx tool version.

    It's really no different to having to switch between AX versions when working on different Jaces. But this strangely never seems to be an issue.
    Just load each version of AX with the appropriate Lynx tool and you can't really go that far wrong.

    If in doubt connect directly with the latest.
    The issues really come when trying to replace an old firmware version Lynx with a new one if the Lynx tool in the Jace is old. You either need to upgrade the Jace and Lynx tool firmware or re flash the Lynx down.
    "Oh no..... more problems" I hear you cry. Well yes this is a pain but the process is infact no different to other systems like how Delta operates. And as the Lynx controllers virtually never break down, in my own experience, is not something you need to do all that often.
    Infact you don't need to do it all if you make the replacement controller a dynamic device.
    I am not advocating the use of these devices. Infact they do nark me off something chronic. I am simply saying that a lot of the problems people have with them are sometimes blown up to be more of an issue than they really are.
    If your gonna slam them at least come with a good argument.
    Just saying that you need to switch tool versions or it can't fly a jubo jet are not really fair.
    Besides I was only giving the man an overview of what the product is he was looking at.

  10. #29
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    Sypder Senses Tingling

    If I got the marketing right, the Sypder is basically used for VAV or some Unitary gear. But it's not just a run-of-the-mill ASC VAV controller, it got bite by a 'spyder' and got super Niagara power. So you can drag in a application and drop in logic, math and some control blocks (eg, ZoneArbitration). Sound nice, but then it's real performance is something else - "isn't a very good lighting controller as the program runs too slowly"; "don't use the Spyder for something that needs fast execution of the program; "fan coil units or small unitary HVAC applications like running a pump it is adequate".

    Are they really competitively priced? I know we can't talk about cost in the forum, but let's say you got 30 VAVs on a floor. Isn't it a 'wash' to use a basic JACE-300E + LON card and then use off-the-shelf LON compliant VAV controllers? I just don't get the Sypder - marketing-wise. If you need to add some special logic - then the JACE handles that. Does the special logic have to be at the VAV controller? Am I missing something and all wet? Even if you were to save 10% on the hardware, is it worth it when there's a risk of a firmware or programming spydie bite?

  11. #30
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    The basic point of the spyder/Lynx is to provide unitary control solutions for Honeywell Niagara BMS systems where installing a Jace is not needed like on the side of a VAV unit.
    It uses Niagara so that Honeywell partner systems engineers don't need to also carry CARE and all the gumph that goes with that.
    It is in essence the Niagara equivalent to their older XL10 but is freely programmable so you don't need to add extra logic to the Jace.
    In terms of their programs being slow, I have never seen it. It has never been an issue anyway and I have come into contact with a few of these.
    One site in particular has every bit of kit in the massive boiler room on its own panel. Different pump sets, boilers, different fans, blah blah blah. Each of these panels contains 1 or 2 6438 controllers and there is a single Jace pulling it all together.
    Works absolutely fine. Not once have I ever thought to myself hmm that software is running a little slow.
    In terms of being competitive in price the 6438 device itself is more or less compairable to Distech's ECB-300 in ability. If you don't have the list prices then I will just say that the ECB-300 is an eye wateringly expensive mid range HVAC plant controller.

    To answer your question yes it probably would be cheaper to get off the shelf application specific devices. But this will always be true of any system or product you use. Is it not cheaper to get an off the shelf plug and play boiler optimiser than using a Jace?

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  13. #31
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    There's another issue to 'cost' and that's on the Service Side of controls. Back in the day I've put in
    JACE 200 to control a few basic RTUs at a bank (using I/O-32 module). We put in a LAN drop at
    the original panel (old controls were ripped out). So nice to be able to remote in to the JACE when
    the client needs some parameters modified (eg, morning warm). Before you had to drive out to the
    site and fire up the CARE machine to update the code. Now of course, you have to have friendly
    IT guys to make this fly (that's another story...). There's the first cost & the service cost - I'm sure that
    could be debated through the night.

  14. #32
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    You guys must have different pricing then what I do. They are within a few bucks of anything else we use.

    Being cost is the same if brand X & Y have plenty of speed for lighting and spyder does not, seems like a valid complaint and something that's done regularly in the building automation market. Nothing like telling the customer in 2017...push and hold in the override button and count to five, or it may not catch it....

    Do they get the job done, sure as long as its within its capabilities. They are at the bottom of the list when I have my choice on what will be used and well behind others in the same market space.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  15. #33
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    That's exactly what I'm saying. They are perfectly fine as long as what you want to with it is within its capabilities.
    It's not my go to controller either. Neither is Tridium as a whole.
    They are however cheaper than some other manufacturers devices of similar IO capacity. On our price lists anyway.

  16. #34
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    Can you provide the ax or n4 software of the Centraline version, thank you

  17. #35
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    https://buildingcontrols.honeywell.c...tractor_search

    You will need a license before its even going to launch.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    https://buildingcontrols.honeywell.c...tractor_search

    You will need a license before its even going to launch.
    My device is WEB-EAGLEAX26D, there is authorization on the device, thank you
    Can you provide the two jar module of clOnboardIO and clPanelBus, thank you

  19. #37
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    Don't think I've seen it mentioned but if this Spyder was existing and already programmed you can't access program without a copy, you already mentioned it wasn't connected to a Jace.

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