Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 46

Thread: Brand-new split system, terrible results, am I over-expecting? Did I under-buy?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    3,016
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    Please post something on the R-410A special flair
    This is pretty basic. The flares are deeper & thicker. https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57b106cb...vs.-Others.pdf


    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    We can control fire & ice.....

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Southold, NY
    Posts
    32,784
    Post Likes
    Exactly.

    A proper flair is all that's needed

  3. Likes hedrash, HVAC_Marc liked this post.
  4. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    3,016
    Post Likes
    A proper 410A flair. Plumber's flares are too shallow

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    We can control fire & ice.....

  5. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    10,543
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by kdean1 View Post
    I think that is partially right and partially wrong. The plate will show the factory charge. However the amount to add for longer line sets is not on the plate.
    It is there on all the units I have done.

    It's different for each, but for example a multi head unit I just commissioned was 2.96 oz for every 5' over 33' and the other head was 1.5 oz for every 5' over 25'.

    There is also the install manual. In the OP's case there are a multitude of things to confirm are correct- total length, individual length, number of bends in the system as well as individual runs, etc. There may even be a distribution point to check.
    The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
    Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
    from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ

  6. Likes hedrash liked this post.
  7. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Billington Heights, NY
    Posts
    21,619
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by hedrash View Post
    This is pretty basic. The flares are deeper & thicker. https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57b106cb...vs.-Others.pdf


    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    45 degrees is 45 degrees, regardless of the marketing BS behind it. the depth of the flare matters little because it still has to fit inside the flare nut. Too much and it doesnt seat, too little and there is no seal.

    Ironically, my OLD plumbing flare tool looks EXACTLY like this "new" tool

  8. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Apache Junction, Arizona
    Posts
    1,132
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by hedrash View Post
    A proper 410A flair. Plumber's flares are too shallow

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    shortly after we talked about this on another thread about the flares I went on a call to help a fellow from another Mechanical Company who did not have the fitting to charge or check the low side... was a ductless system with plumbers flare and was leaking due to the flare.. some more tension cured it but I not sure for how long.. it needs to be replaced with new flare..... I gotta get the new flare kit .. I only have the old one from granger 20 years old.. LOL....... priced one from Trane when I was there I think was the cool yellow jacket model one.
    "I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid." - John Gotti

    “Always shoot first . . . that way they know you’re armed!” - Orrin Porter Rockwell

    "Individuals and entities performing contracting work illegally and without a license place the public at risk and effectively steal millions from Arizona's hardworking, law-abiding contractors and their employees," - Jeff Fleetham, director of the Arizona Registrar of Contractors.

  9. Likes hedrash, ckelley3 liked this post.
  10. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    napping on the couch
    Posts
    15,556
    Post Likes
    Hedrash has nailed this, as usual.

    Your unit is either low on refrigerant or it is still leaking. This is my educated guess.

    When a Mitsubishi develops a leak, you cannot just fix the leak and top off the refrigerant. You need to remove what is in the unit and weigh in a charge based on line set length. I'll bet a bottle of Wild Turkey 101 they just fixed a leak and dumped a little "juice" in it.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  11. Likes hedrash liked this post.
  12. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    napping on the couch
    Posts
    15,556
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by hedrash View Post
    Sounds as if your system is definitely undercharged. Mitsubishi units use "flare" connections not a brazed connection (essentially a welded connection) & they are VERY prone to leaks if not done correctly. The technicians need to use a good 410A flare tool & confirm with high pressure nitrogen leak test. I'd almost bet one of the flares are leaking. Turning a few of the units off will allow the system to come up to full capacity (well, at least the maximum capacity you'll get with low refrigerant) & work well. Insist on a few things from this "diamond dealer."
    1. - recover all of the R-410A into a proper recovery can & weigh that refrigerant to find out how much was actually in the system.
    2. - Perform a 300psig nitrogen leak check. This should hold for at least 2-3hrs without budging.
    3. - Have them find & fix any leaks
    4. - Have them triple evacuate the system
    5. Have them charge the unit to Mitsubishi's specs.

    This is work intensive but you paid good money for a system that works. If it worked, then didn't & you cut down the capacity & it's working well now, it's DEFINITELY undercharged & could have a leak still.
    Hope this helps & hopefully the company is receptive to your wishes.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    Bingo. Except that Mitsubishi wants a 600psi test. Holy crap that is a high pressure.

    Hey hedrash, do you want a job and move to the beautiful state of Oregon? I'm kinda being serious.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  13. Likes HellGato, hedrash liked this post.
  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    napping on the couch
    Posts
    15,556
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by mynameismonkey View Post
    Just a little update, I turned off all the clearly poor-performers, I have two of the units on right now and the fan outside is now at full speed, the two exhaust lines are producing a ton of condensate runoff, the air coming out of those two units is considerably colder, and the humidity in the room with the 15k which is now off, has dropped from 65% humidity to 55% with the unit _off_.
    This is an indication of low on charge on a multi head Mitsubishi.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Apache Junction, Arizona
    Posts
    1,132
    Post Likes
    I too vote for the low charge.. bet for sure is a bad shallow plumbers flare...

    I would hire ol hedrash too but probably could not afford him.. He probablly would flee from the awesome State of Arizona heat anyway as any sane man should if he had a cushy job in beautiful cool Oregon ... I am poor boy contractor.. woe is me.. LOL
    "I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid." - John Gotti

    “Always shoot first . . . that way they know you’re armed!” - Orrin Porter Rockwell

    "Individuals and entities performing contracting work illegally and without a license place the public at risk and effectively steal millions from Arizona's hardworking, law-abiding contractors and their employees," - Jeff Fleetham, director of the Arizona Registrar of Contractors.

  16. Likes Brian8383, hedrash liked this post.
  17. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    3,016
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian8383 View Post
    Bingo. Except that Mitsubishi wants a 600psi test. Holy crap that is a high pressure.

    Hey hedrash, do you want a job and move to the beautiful state of Oregon? I'm kinda being serious.
    I literally spent 20yrs in the field, pretty happy in Texas right now. Beautiful weather & great Inside Technical consultation job. Thank you though.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    We can control fire & ice.....

  18. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    3,016
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by HellGato View Post
    shortly after we talked about this on another thread about the flares I went on a call to help a fellow from another Mechanical Company who did not have the fitting to charge or check the low side... was a ductless system with plumbers flare and was leaking due to the flare.. some more tension cured it but I not sure for how long.. it needs to be replaced with new flare..... I gotta get the new flare kit .. I only have the old one from granger 20 years old.. LOL....... priced one from Trane when I was there I think was the cool yellow jacket model one.
    Hilmor makes an amazing combination flare & swage kit with an automatic feeler gauge for the proper pipe depth.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    We can control fire & ice.....

  19. Likes kdean1, HellGato liked this post.
  20. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Plano, TX
    Posts
    3,016
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by HVAC_Marc View Post
    45 degrees is 45 degrees, regardless of the marketing BS behind it. the depth of the flare matters little because it still has to fit inside the flare nut. Too much and it doesnt seat, too little and there is no seal.

    Ironically, my OLD plumbing flare tool looks EXACTLY like this "new" tool
    I highly doubt it's a marketing tool if Mitsubishi, Daikin, Sanyo, Fujitsu, Lennox, Trane, Carrier, etc. all say use a 410a flaring tool in their installation manuals. A lot of them are now required stranded wire as well to reduce RF noise on the comm buss. Since Yellow jacket, uniweld, hilmor & others are making 410a flare kits & not associated with these manufacturers, that leads me to think that it's true. Many 3rd party tests & articles out there on this as well.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    We can control fire & ice.....

  21. Likes jrbenny liked this post.
  22. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    10,543
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by hedrash View Post
    I highly doubt it's a marketing tool if Mitsubishi, Daikin, Sanyo, Fujitsu, Lennox, Trane, Carrier, etc. all say use a 410a flaring tool in their installation manuals. A lot of them are now required stranded wire as well to reduce RF noise on the comm buss. Since Yellow jacket, uniweld, hilmor & others are making 410a flare kits & not associated with these manufacturers, that leads me to think that it's true. Many 3rd party tests & articles out there on this as well.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    I am still not convinced that it isn't marketing.
    They just put a new name on it and sell it as 410A.
    I want to make a few of each and compare.
    There is a difference in flares across fields of work, but not sure about in this case.
    The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
    Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
    from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ

  23. Likes HVAC_Marc liked this post.
  24. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Palm Beach,Fl.
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Likes
    One more vote for recharging the system by weight. Bad flares are the easiest flares to make and if only 25% are bad that's still 5 leaks to be addressed. There is no way the system was pressure tested properly prior to start up. I'm really glad I'm not the Service Manager on this job. Sorry for all your troubles OP, hope they get you taken care of.
    Quote Originally Posted by k-fridge View Post
    The laws of physics know no brand names.

  25. Likes hedrash liked this post.
  26. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    8
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Thank you all for the extremely informative and helpful replies. Had a guy visit today, the current "official" diagnosis is something along the lines of "refrigerant trapped in the line where it bends" and "we're going to add some oil", so, that will happen Friday and I'll post an update then. To be fair, the customer service has been brilliant, very responsive. But still, got a humid, hot house and the units that _do_ work are starting to make those rooms smell a bit funny. methinks I'll be re-buying some window units for the interim pretty soon.

  27. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Palm Beach,Fl.
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Likes
    Neither of those diagnosis make any sense at all. While the service may be prompt and courteous it also sounds like no one at this company understands how this system works. I would not let them add anything to the system without first removing all the refrigerant and pressure testing per manufacturers guidelines.
    Quote Originally Posted by k-fridge View Post
    The laws of physics know no brand names.

  28. Likes hedrash liked this post.
  29. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    napping on the couch
    Posts
    15,556
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by mynameismonkey View Post
    Thank you all for the extremely informative and helpful replies. Had a guy visit today, the current "official" diagnosis is something along the lines of "refrigerant trapped in the line where it bends" and "we're going to add some oil", so, that will happen Friday and I'll post an update then. To be fair, the customer service has been brilliant, very responsive. But still, got a humid, hot house and the units that _do_ work are starting to make those rooms smell a bit funny. methinks I'll be re-buying some window units for the interim pretty soon.
    Nope. I'm always open to the idea that I'm wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about, but I can comfortably say these guys don't know what they are doing. Refrigerant doesn't get trapped due to lack of oil or because of a bend in a pipe. If the pipe is kinked it will slow the flow of refrigerant or possibly stop it if it is completely kinked. Here is a picture of a kinked soft copper line. Unless it looks like this or worse, refrigerant is not being restricted. And if there is a kink causing a restriction, which it doesn't sound like, no amount of oil will fix that.



    Please don't let them put oil in your system.

    I'm not sure if you mentioned it earlier, but where do you live? We might be able to find a qualified tech to look at your system.
    “Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.”
    -Possibly said by Thomas Jefferson(but true even if he didn't)


    “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”
    ― Definitely said by John Wesley

  30. Likes hedrash liked this post.
  31. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Apache Junction, Arizona
    Posts
    1,132
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by mynameismonkey View Post
    Thank you all for the extremely informative and helpful replies. Had a guy visit today, the current "official" diagnosis is something along the lines of "refrigerant trapped in the line where it bends" and "we're going to add some oil", so, that will happen Friday and I'll post an update then. To be fair, the customer service has been brilliant, very responsive. But still, got a humid, hot house and the units that _do_ work are starting to make those rooms smell a bit funny. methinks I'll be re-buying some window units for the interim pretty soon.
    That in my opinion is a absurd diagnosis

    adding oil sounds downright insane

    if you had trapped refrigerant only removing or fixing the restriction or "bend" is the only cure.

    Frankly at this point I would be running them off and calling a new independant contractor

    just my two cents

    good luck with it.

    "I never lie because I don't fear anyone. You only lie when you're afraid." - John Gotti

    “Always shoot first . . . that way they know you’re armed!” - Orrin Porter Rockwell

    "Individuals and entities performing contracting work illegally and without a license place the public at risk and effectively steal millions from Arizona's hardworking, law-abiding contractors and their employees," - Jeff Fleetham, director of the Arizona Registrar of Contractors.

  32. Likes hedrash liked this post.
  33. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Palm Beach,Fl.
    Posts
    1,079
    Post Likes
    Yeah, that might be in my "top 5 most preposterous" diagnosis of all time.
    Quote Originally Posted by k-fridge View Post
    The laws of physics know no brand names.

  34. Likes HellGato, jim147, hedrash liked this post.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •