Help with HVAC Quotes/Approaches

[smc733]

Hello All,

I've been learning a ton by reading through the forums, which is great, so I decided to join and ask some questions about my situation, in hope of getting some good opinions.

To start, here's what I have in my 1,240 sqft townhome (MA):
Furnace: Original (30 years old) ArcoAire GUF 100k BTU, standing pilot furnace. There's a fair amount of rust, and the flames when on are fairly yellow and waive quite a bit (potentially HX cracks, and if I do not replace the furnace before then, I WILL have it professionally inspected before the winter).
AC: Goodman CKL R-22 condensing unit, but the original 3-ton ArocAire coil inside! I don't have a date on the outdoor condensing unit (bought the place earlier this year), but it is at least in good physical shape, which suggests its not all THAT old (compared to the rusted out ArcoAires in the neighborhood)

Given the age of the furnace, I plan to replace it.

I had a Rheem contractor out here not that long ago, and the upsell was fierce, wanting to replace everything from the sun and back, and throwing in all of these "necessities" like a 5" filter, humidifier,wifi thermostat etc. Some of these things may be good to have, but I am mindful of the fact that this is a townhome, and not likely to be where I am living 10 years from now.

I'd prefer to stick to a nice basic single stage 80% Goodman with a multi-speed blower, though I am open to a 95%+ if the price ends up being right with the state rebates (I won't discuss any of that here, since it's against the rules), but it doesn't look super easy to do the PVC venting from the basement. My question is this, which of the below options is best to pursue:

1. Replace the furnace, leave outdoor condensing unit and old coil.

2. Replace furnace, leave condensing unit, but replace coil with the Goodman CAPF coil, which can take R-22 then later be flushed and accept r410a (or is this a horrible idea?)

3. Replace it all, furnace, coil, condensing unit.

Being younger, I find sometimes dishonest (which are the very small but existent minority) contractors might try to pull the wool over my eyes, so I want to keep myself armed with good information.

Thanks all in advance for your input.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I'm not 100% tied to Goodman, per se, but if I'm going to salvage the outdoor unit, I'd prefer a matching system. There are also a few really well rated Goodman installers in my area (ones also installing higher end equipment like Carrier and Trane), so I know the most important thing is a good installer). Goodman quotes also tend to come in on the more affordable side.

[udarrell]

The first thing is to have a load-calc & equipment sizing performed. <Click link

I would want a 95% high efficiency furnace.

What are the runtimes of your A/C?
On hot & high humidity days especially in the mid to late afternoons write down when A/C starts & stops & ten when it starts again.

Record all relevant temps; outdoor; temp-rise off the condenser; temp-drop from Return-air to best supply air register, & %Relative Humidity INDOORS.

This will provide us clues as to how well the system is performing & what % of the units BTUH is being used to maintain T-stat setting.

[Tech23]

If the indoor coil is original with furnace chances are it has a metal drain pan and as they get aged the metal pan will rust and start dripping or draining water during cooling season down thru furnace. Most new coils have plastic drain pans, so if you replace the furnace I would recommended at least replacing indoor coil as well, since water damage on a furnace is not covered by manufacturer's warranty.

CKL outdoor Goodman units: K stands for 10 seer(seasonal energy efficiency ratio). That is like gas mileage to a car, the higher seer number typically means lower electricity used to do the same job under same conditions.

Min efficiency now is 13/14 seer depending on market area. If you are planning on being in the house for a while, might not be a bad idea to consider replacing full system and getting a more efficient system that is all new and can be registered to have a 10 yr part warranty, where as your existing outdoor unit probably has no warranty left on it. With serial number of OD unit I would know exactly how old it is.

Hope this info is helpful.

[smc733]

If the indoor coil is original with furnace chances are it has a metal drain pan and as they get aged the metal pan will rust and start dripping or draining water during cooling season down thru furnace. Most new coils have plastic drain pans, so if you replace the furnace I would recommended at least replacing indoor coil as well, since water damage on a furnace is not covered by manufacturer's warranty.

CKL outdoor Goodman units: K stands for 10 seer(seasonal energy efficiency ratio). That is like gas mileage to a car, the higher seer number typically means lower electricity used to do the same job under same conditions.

Min efficiency now is 13/14 seer depending on market area. If you are planning on being in the house for a while, might not be a bad idea to consider replacing full system and getting a more efficient system that is all new and can be registered to have a 10 yr part warranty, where as your existing outdoor unit probably has no warranty left on it. With serial number of OD unit I would know exactly how old it is.

Hope this info is helpful.

Thank you, this is very helpful! There's definitely rust and dripping, there's water on the concrete floor in the basement (not much), but the blower compartment keeps getting a fair amount of water (enough to make the bottom of the filter wet) all summer.

With this information, I will be sure to put option 1 out of the equation, so at LEAST the coil and furnace will be getting replaced.

The unit is a CKL36-1L, SN is 0507742081. If I do them all at once, I assume there would be some level of savings in terms of labor required?

I do like the idea of being able to have both units warrantied for 10 years.

For the post above, I will start collecting data, I can say with certainty that the AC does not cycle on and off a lot, it does a good job at cooling too. I can say the one person evaluating my system said my 3 ton/100k BTU setup would be replaced by 2 ton/40k.

[Tech23]

Thank you, this is very helpful! There's definitely rust and dripping, there's water on the concrete floor in the basement (not much), but the blower compartment keeps getting a fair amount of water (enough to make the bottom of the filter wet) all summer.

With this information, I will be sure to put option 1 out of the equation, so at LEAST the coil and furnace will be getting replaced.

The unit is a CKL36-1L, SN is 0507742081. If I do them all at once, I assume there would be some level of savings in terms of labor required?

I do like the idea of being able to have both units warrantied for 10 years.

For the post above, I will start collecting data, I can say with certainty that the AC does not cycle on and off a lot, it does a good job at cooling too. I can say the one person evaluating my system said my 3 ton/100k BTU setup would be replaced by 2 ton/40k.

That is a 2005 model 3 ton 10 seer unit, so it is 10 yrs old.

Dropping in size(going down in tonnage) is not the normal unless someone over sized to begin with. I would make sure you get at least 3 quotes and see if others are recommending going down in size as well. I would really recommend that someone do a load calculation on your home to be sure what size is needed.

[smc733]

That is a 2005 model 3 ton 10 seer unit, so it is 10 yrs old.

Dropping in size(going down in tonnage) is not the normal unless someone over sized to begin with. I would make sure you get at least 3 quotes and see if others are recommending going down in size as well. I would really recommend that someone do a load calculation on your home to be sure what size is needed.

Thanks, I definitely plan on getting another three quotes on top of the one I've already gotten. The one I had done seemed sure that 100k was oversized for the furnace (he said all builders did this years ago), but we didn't talk much about the AC. I will definitely insist on getting a calculation done before anything is installed. I take it 10 years is closer toward the end of life than new? Combine this with the water in my blower compartment (might be from the rusted out tray under my packaged coil), I think I'm going to do the whole system whenever I decide to pull the trigger.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how best to get my 30 year old heat exchanger inspected? I don't want it done by someone with an incentive to sell me a replacement. My gas company (National Grid) doesn't seem to have anything on their website about it. I'd like confirmation as to whether or not this is an issue before I make a move, so I know how urgent things are. I know the Snyder General RPJ in this unit is known to be prone to crack, so that's what has me thinking about this.

[vstech]

Request a inspection with a flue gas printout. Or have one with a coil/blower pull and inspection camera photo proof of hx condition.

[Tech23]

Thanks, I definitely plan on getting another three quotes on top of the one I've already gotten. The one I had done seemed sure that 100k was oversized for the furnace (he said all builders did this years ago), but we didn't talk much about the AC. I will definitely insist on getting a calculation done before anything is installed. I take it 10 years is closer toward the end of life than new? Combine this with the water in my blower compartment (might be from the rusted out tray under my packaged coil), I think I'm going to do the whole system whenever I decide to pull the trigger.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how best to get my 30 year old heat exchanger inspected? I don't want it done by someone with an incentive to sell me a replacement. My gas company (National Grid) doesn't seem to have anything on their website about it. I'd like confirmation as to whether or not this is an issue before I make a move, so I know how urgent things are. I know the Snyder General RPJ in this unit is known to be prone to crack, so that's what has me thinking about this.

Unfortunately those who are good enough to be able to tell you if a heat exchanger is cracked or not are the ones who also sell furnaces. Finding cracks in heat exchangers is an experience thing so companies who have been around for a long time would be a good recommendation.

Older systems say prior to mid 80's had a longer average lifespan, but were less efficient and did not have all the safeties the new ones do today. Mid 80's and newer probably have more of a 12 to 20 average life, but you have to realize average life expectancy depends on: if it was installed properly and serviced on a reg basis and how much a person wants to put into the system for repairs and to some extent luck of the draw like anything else.

Gas furnaces are rated on an afue, so a 30 yr old one might have only had a 60% AFUE, meaning 60% of heat in home and 40% up the flue, newer ones usually have a min of 80%, so they put more btu's in the home. So a 100,000 60% would put approx 60,000 btu's in home and an 80% 80,000 would put approx 64,000 btu's in home. It is common to lower btu of furnace when swapping out a really old one for this reason.

Good luck and post questions during the process if you want.

[smc733]

Unfortunately those who are good enough to be able to tell you if a heat exchanger is cracked or not are the ones who also sell furnaces. Finding cracks in heat exchangers is an experience thing so companies who have been around for a long time would be a good recommendation.

Older systems say prior to mid 80's had a longer average lifespan, but were less efficient and did not have all the safeties the new ones do today. Mid 80's and newer probably have more of a 12 to 20 average life, but you have to realize average life expectancy depends on: if it was installed properly and serviced on a reg basis and how much a person wants to put into the system for repairs and to some extent luck of the draw like anything else.

Gas furnaces are rated on an afue, so a 30 yr old one might have only had a 60% AFUE, meaning 60% of heat in home and 40% up the flue, newer ones usually have a min of 80%, so they put more btu's in the home. So a 100,000 60% would put approx 60,000 btu's in home and an 80% 80,000 would put approx 64,000 btu's in home. It is common to lower btu of furnace when swapping out a really old one for this reason.

Good luck and post questions during the process if you want.

Thank you! You've been immensely helpful so far, I will certainly continue to keep the thread updated as things progress. I will make sure that whatever DOES get installed, I will take care of and ensure it gets routine service. So even if I go with a basic 80% furnace, I should probably see a drop in my gas bill (which honestly wasn't horrible in March (the only winter month I've been in the place)? I'll take the above poster's recommendation on finding someone who can provide the proper pictures and documentation of their inspection. I'll certainly post back once this is done.

For one last aside, as far as equipment goes, what does anyone think of the ICP line (oddly enough the same ArcoAire is common in my area)? I don't see the value in going top-shelf (Trane, Carrier, etc) for what I have right now, so I would like to consider at least one other economy line brand.

[Tech23]

Thank you! You've been immensely helpful so far, I will certainly continue to keep the thread updated as things progress. I will make sure that whatever DOES get installed, I will take care of and ensure it gets routine service. So even if I go with a basic 80% furnace, I should probably see a drop in my gas bill (which honestly wasn't horrible in March (the only winter month I've been in the place)? I'll take the above poster's recommendation on finding someone who can provide the proper pictures and documentation of their inspection. I'll certainly post back once this is done.

For one last aside, as far as equipment goes, what does anyone think of the ICP line (oddly enough the same ArcoAire is common in my area)? I don't see the value in going top-shelf (Trane, Carrier, etc) for what I have right now, so I would like to consider at least one other economy line brand.

Again you are most welcome and do look forward to hearing updates. I won't recommend a brand, because the best brand installed and serviced incorrectly won't satisfy you, run efficiently or last long. On the other hand a commonly thought of lesser brand name installed correctly and serviced correctly will satisfy you, run as efficiently as is designed and will last so much longer.

So my recommendation is to be sure you get a good installing/service company who has been around awhile, who will do it right and be there to take care of you and your system for yrs to come.

[dan sw fl]

Thank you, this is very helpful!

I do like the idea of being able to have both units warrantied for 10 years.

For the post above, I will start collecting data, I can say with certainty that the AC does not cycle on and off a lot, it does a good job at cooling too.
I can say the one person evaluating my system said my 3 ton/100k BTU setup
would be replaced by 2 ton/40k.

2-TON A/C Unit with 40,000 btu/hr FURNACE IS MORE THAN ADEQUATE
for a 30 YEAR Old, 2-story 1,240 Square Foot townhouse in MA.

ATTACHMENT -CALC
$633.27 WINTER _ 5,800 HEATING DEGREE DAYS with $1.10 /THERM NATURAL GAS
$273.31 SUMMER _ 1,100 hours run time is probably quite an overestimate, $0.16 / kW-Hr
$906.58 TOTAL

[dan sw fl]

ASHRAE 2009 Edition

BOSTON
LOGAN INT'L ARPT
42.36'N 71.01'W
30 foot elevation

99.6%/ 99.0%
7.4'F /12.4'F

DRY BULB / WET BULB
0.4% _ > 35 HOURS PER YEAR
90.8'F/ 73.3'F

1.0% _ > 88 HOURS PER YEAR
87.6'F/ 71.9'F

[smc733]

Again you are most welcome and do look forward to hearing updates. I won't recommend a brand, because the best brand installed and serviced incorrectly won't satisfy you, run efficiently or last long. On the other hand a commonly thought of lesser brand name installed correctly and serviced correctly will satisfy you, run as efficiently as is designed and will last so much longer.

So my recommendation is to be sure you get a good installing/service company who has been around awhile, who will do it right and be there to take care of you and your system for yrs to come.

Hello all,

I wanted to update you as promised on the progress made so far. I've had a Lennox dealer and a Goodman dealer come out to give me quotes. Suffice to say, the Lennox dealer priced himself out of the stratosphere and is not in consideration. I've got a good feeling about the Goodman installer, he was nice, professional, honest, did NOT try to upsell me (offered suggestions as to what is worth and what isn't worth an upgrade), and has excellent reviews from 12 years being in business.

Living in Northern MA, what does everyone think of the difference between 13 and 16 SEER? I'm trying to determine if there's enough of an efficiency upgrade that is worth it, given we only run the cooling system about 3.5 months a year.

The Lennox dealer was also hell-bent on selling me an ECM motor/fully modulating furnace. Given this is a small place, not occupied during weekdays, and unlikely to be my long-term home, I wanted to keep things simple, multi-speed, single stage. The Goodman GMSS96 is my likely choice, it's just a question of pairing this with either the GSX13 or the GSX16.

One more thing, some people suggest stepping up to Amana. Is the difference between the aluminized steel (Goodman) and stainless steel (Amana) heat exchanger worth it? Part of me says no, given that the warranty is the same on them, and regardless of it being lifetime, the HX will likely outlive my time in this house.

Thanks!
SMC

[udarrell]

In Massachusetts (MA) I probably wouldn't go above a 14-seer; you would want a scroll compressor & a TXV refrigerant metering device.