HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion banner

Vacuum pump oil info needed!

134K views 50 replies 24 participants last post by  hvacker  
#1 ·
Someone please clarify something for me.

I have always had the understanding that vacuum pump oil was a specific type of oil. That is why we purchase it at our supply house instead of any automotive store.

I thought vacuum pump oil was hygroscopic in nature (absorbs moisture) and this being the reason that keeping fresh vacuum pump oil in your pump will aid in quicker pull downs.

I have someone stating they have compressor oil of the same viscosity as vacuum pump oil and I should use it in place of true vacuum pump oil.

Can someone please clarify this for me? Reference material (website links or references) would be awesome.


Thank you to those that can help me!

~smoke~
 
Save
#2 ·
I have always used real vac pump oil.

I was under the impression that vac pump oil has a lower vapor pressure than compressor oil, and allows the pump to pull deeper. I don't know if this is true or not.

I am looking forward to the answers too.
 
#4 ·
I am in a location in a part of the world where I cannot go down to Johnstone Supply and pick up a quart of vacuum pump oil.

This is someone's idea of a temporary fix but I'm not convinced. I am also not a chemist. I am searching the internet for facts but haven't found any yet.

I'm sure someone on here has the information.


~smoke~
 
Save
#49 ·
I am in a location in a part of the world where I cannot go down to Johnstone Supply and pick up a quart of vacuum pump oil.

This is someone's idea of a temporary fix but I'm not convinced. I am also not a chemist. I am searching the internet for facts but haven't found any yet.

I'm sure someone on here has the information.


~smoke~
Can you call the pump manufacturer and ask?
 
#5 ·
good question, here's what i got from JB's website.

2. Why is it so important to change the oil often in my vacuum pump?
The proper oil in a vacuum pump acts as a blotter and absorbs all of the moisture and non-condensables. As the oil becomes saturated with these contaminants, the efficiency of the pump is dramatically reduced. Maintaining clean oil in the pump ensures that the pump will operate at peak efficiency.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Can I use any oil in my vacuum pump?
No. JB Black Gold oil is extremely pure and non-detergent. Black Gold is hydro processed which means it goes through a series of catalytic steps rendering the oil extremely refined, more viscous, and more stable. The result is a clear mineral oil that will alert you to contamination sooner as it becomes cloudy or milky.
 
Save
#6 ·
Thanks hotrodrob!

I figured that vacuum pump oil was a more refined mineral oil but will it hurt the pump to run compressor mineral oil?

Any additional input is greatly appreciated!

I am at a remote site, 8,000 miles off the east coast of the US. Going to bed now. Anxiously dreaming about responses in the morning!

I have 3 pumps here, I can always try it with my least favorite pump and see how it pulls down the microns and to see if it catches on fire...

Thanks all!

~smoke~
 
Save
#7 ·
I have used compressor mineral oil in vacuum pumps in a pinch w/o problems I know of. I think the oils have more similarities than differences but true information is scarce. A compressor is a pump also. The most important thing is that they remain lubricated. Being a long way from home sometimes one has to be creative.
Don't use anything meant for internal combustion engines. They contain additives not meant for vac pumps, like zinc.
 
Save
#9 ·
As I recall vacuum pump oil has a boiling point much higher than compressor oil. I believe that vacuum oil is also called "top cut", meaning all the lower boiling point portions of the oil have been remove. This makes it capable of pulling low vacuum and not vaporize off while doing so.
 
#10 ·
Here are MSDS sheets for;

Nucalgon C3 Mineral oil, Vapor pressure <.001 mmHg
Nucalgon Vacuum pump oil, Vapor pressure <.0001 mmHg
Yellow Jacket Vacuum pump oil Vapor pressure <.01 mmHg

The vapor pressure for Nu Calgon mineral oil is lower than the Yellow Jacket vacuum pump oil! So you could technically pull a deeper vacuum with Nu Calgon mineral oil than with Yellow Jacket vac pump oil.

The Nu Calgon Vacuum pump oil is the lowest which makes it an excellent choice.

Smoke, I'm guessing you would not notice any difference in pump performance by using mineral oil. You could always connect your micron gauge alone to the pump and see how deep it pulls.
 
#18 ·
Hmmm....



It would seem that a company that makes oil specifically for this job, would not let it fall so far below mineral oil in its specs, without a reason. There must be a reason that Yellow Jacket Vacuum pump oil only goes down to .01mmHG, and from my experience in general issues, and not in HVAC(as that is fairly limited), there is something else at play here. What I would suggest, is to use the best oil that you can get your oil hands on, depending on your limitations, and I would get an oil that was made by a known company with a long track record of producing VACUUM PUMP Oil. Then I would research the issue more deeply over the next few days, week, weeks, month, or months, or whatever length of time that it take to find someone that really know what they are talking about, and then cross reference that with someone else that really knows what they are talking about. Basically I would try to find several sources on the matter that are knowledgeable, and that say basically the same thing. Then, once you are confident that you have the answer, come back here and post it. Finally, spread the knowledge everywhere that you can! there is no reason that in the CNA, we cannot find the answer to our question, no matter what it is, but simply typing your question into a search engine!
 
#17 ·
Someone please clarify something for me.

I have always had the understanding that vacuum pump oil was a specific type of oil. That is why we purchase it at our supply house instead of any automotive store.
Why do you feel that oil sold for MVAC isn't adequate?

NAPA sells Master Cool brand oil. NTE783932
Mastercool does not publish technical data on their website, but I will request it and post it if I get their response.

its not stocked in stores, but it can be ordered to the store on the website and have it within a day or two. The cost is substantially lower than the NAPA house brand for some reason, but I think its better to change frequently with that than use costlier oil and keep it longer.

http://napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NTE783932_0064871783


For HVAC and refrigeration MROs I don't think the type of vacuum oil matters. It doesn't matter if the vapor pressure is 10^-7 or 10^-10 torrs. In electrical applications like evacuating vacuum tubes, it matters a great deal.

Keep in mind that system's compressor oil is the limiting factor rather than the vacuum pump's oil when it comes to final vacuum level.
 
#19 ·
I come from the high vacuum field. Yes all HVP oils are straight mineral oils, other than true exotics like Fomblin. And yes they are carefully refined so that only long-chain molecules are left, resulting in vapor pressures in the .1 micron range or so. There are two general viscosities: Belt-drive, of higher viscosity; and direct-drive, of lower viscosity because the pumps turn faster and tend to overheat on belt-drive oil. Most of it is yellow-ish. I'm embarrassed not to remember if these general-purpose oils have any discernable odor in the headspace of the container: I think they do have a slight odor. Occasionally I'll splurge for "Technical White Oil", which brand I buy, at least, is water-clear. These have been further refined, or synthesized to bar all aromatics, and are odorless.

The ideal GP vacuum pump oil is hydrophobic. Water in the oil is a contaminant, no more welcome than the water which eventually limits the performance of deep frying oils. Ideally, it drops to the bottom of the pump housing, where it often wreaks some havoc with iron casings and sometimes drain plugs if not attended to. Normally this would need draining on occasion, and because it sinks can be drained off without necessarily replacing the oil charge. But it nonetheless does contaminate the oil, and would limit the ultimate vacuum that can be achieved... were it not for the GP vacuum pump's secret weapon: the ballast valve. The ballast valve admits some air to the second stage. The second stage is chosen in part because the first stage buffers its effect from the system under vacuum, essentially turning the pump (partly, as the second stage is not fully saturated with air) into a single-stage pump while the ballast is open. The degraded ultimate vacuum rating with the ballast open is also generally specified. Technical pumps are often rated for water vapor throughput: in grams/hour or sometimes as a function of the partial pressure of water at the inlet of the pump: sometimes both. This is the continuous rating with the ballast open: within those guidelines, water will not collect in the casing of the pump.

These pumps are rated for and can actually achieve base pressures in the .1 to .2 micron range.

The air admitted to the second stage is compressed and then re-expands once it goes through the exhaust valve. This "work" tends to heat the air directly, and indirectly the pump oil, which aids in the carrying of water out of the pump oil. The air is dispersed very finely into the oil, making for a large surface area and making it milky. But these little bubbles tend to rise through the oil bath in the housing, whereas the pump draws oil from near the bottom of the sump: the moist air tends not to recirculate per se.

I use a purpose-designed catalytic trap on the inlet of my under-the-bench pump to guard against pump oil backstreaming into sensitive apparatus. At the ultimate pressure of the pump, this oil competes effectively with water vapor and air (and the water vapor in the air) as a limitation to the ultimate vacuum of the pump. Some improvement in ultimate pressure can usually be had by purging with dry air, but the backstreaming problem remains. As I recall, this trap generates a gram of water or so per hour. So when I notice base pressure deteriorating, about once an hour or so, I open the ballast for a couple of minutes. I run my exhaust through a clear PVC hose: it mists up with vapor and droplets at first: when the hoses run clear again, I know it's finished.

Now enter the HVAC pump. These very rarely have ballast valves.

But keep in mind the usual wisdom in the HVAC world: 250 microns is often used as a rule of thumb for "good enough". This places lower expectations on the pump oils. Having no ballast, oil changes are expected to be at least somewhat more frequent: it's appealing to have less expensive oils.

Occasionally marketing plays tricky roles. If Yellow Jacket advertised that their oils were good to .1 micron, failure to achieve that base pressure with their pumps would tend to impune the pump, not the oil.

Some pump oils, esp. into the HVAC market, do advertise that they are hygroscopic: however, I know of no additive that is added to any pump oils to make it hygroscopic: they all champion their purity.

I highly suspect that these oils are no more hygroscopic than any GP vacuum pump oil. But because HVAC pumps have no ballast, they promote this inevitable but undesirable property as a desirable one, if only to better rationalize the absence of ballasts on HVAC pumps.

Back to the OP's question, it is not likely that compressor oil would be suitably refined for use in technical applications. But if it is virtually odorless, and has no adverse additives, it would more than likely be suitable for HVAC applications: probably down to at least 25 microns, I would guess: setting aside the issue of viscosity and possibly heating the pump (and increasing backstreaming) to some extent. According to one theory, this unrefined oil could continue to contaminate the pump across a change of oil or two of high-grade oils. But it's not quite that bad. To some extent, the base pressure settles to the average vapor pressure of its components. Made for-purpose pump flushing fluid, usually red in color, presumably has a higher vapor pressure if not some downright solvent in it. Draining the fluid and replacing with GP hivac oil is considered sufficient to restore pump performance.
 
#20 ·
The refrigerant oil is also a limiting factor, last time I checked 3gs oil would boil ~ 20 microns/70*f.

My 6 cfm pump has a ballast valve, 3 smaller pumps don’t. Typically larger shared pumps all had ballast which were usually left open till systems were below 5-10k microns.
 
#22 ·
Ooops I stand corrected. So-called "corrosion protection" oils are hygroscopic, though not necessarily by design.

But note HVAC service is non-corrosive. In the following discussion, Leybold makes it clear that LVO 100 oil, free of hygroscopic additives, is preferred when pumping non-corrosive gases, including water vapor.

Curiouser and curiouser!

But yeah: I'd avoid hygroscopic oils for HVAC service. It just ain't right.

"If corrosive vapors (e.g. the vapors formed by acids) are to be pumped, then a PROTELEN® corrosion protection oil should be used in place of the normal pump oil. These types of vapors will then react with the basic (alkaline) corrosion protection agent in the oil. The continuous neutralization reactions will exhaust the corrosion protection agent at a rate depending on the quantity and acidity of the vapors. The oil will have to be changed more frequently in accordance with these factors. Corrosion protection oils are either very hygroscopic (adsorbing water) or they easily form emulsions with water. Consequently, a pump which is filled with corrosion protection oil will absorb moisture from the air if it is out of service for an extended period of time. A pump filled with corrosion protection oil must not be used to pump water vapor since the lubricating and corrosion protection properties of the oil would be adversely affected. Once the oil has absorbed water it will no longer be possible for such pumps to achieve their ultimate pressure. Oil-sealed pumps should, under normal operating conditions, not be filled with corrosion protection oil. LVO 100 oil is preferred when pumping air, water vapor and non-corrosive organic vapors in so far as there is positive protection against the vapors condensing inside the pump."
 
#23 ·
Thanks Jeff for an engineering perspective.
 
Save
#24 ·
I have used 150S US compressor oil in vacuum pumps when there was no other immediate choice. I didn't notice any performance differences but I wasn't looking to get past about 750 microns at the time either. That was mineral - I've never tried POE but if it came to a 2:00A necessity I wouldn't hesitate to try it. Sometimes you have to make what's available work to get the job done.

I do think that oil contamination in a vacuum pump is a necessary evil rather than it having an integral filtering intention in the process.

PHM
-------
 
Save
#26 ·
POE and PAG oil have a vapor pressure at normal ambient temp ranges much lower than you will see with the vacuum pump (less than few microns), unless you break it down at high temperatures above 350 degs F.

Vacuum pump oil is critical to vacuum pump's ability to achieve deep vacuum. It is mostly purified mineral oil that has been through a distillation process to reduce its vapor pressure, along with some additives. It is similar to refrigerant grade mineral oil used for older systems.

Regular mineral oil will not have the lower vapor pressure so it will greatly limit the vacuum level achievable.

The pump oil will absorb moisture and contaminates from AC system. Using ballast opening on vacuum pump above 5000 microns can help expel some of the moisture the oil has collected extending usable oil life a bit.

When you pull vacuum on anything but a new system you will see degradation in depth of vacuum achievable after only a couple of uses.
 
#27 ·
Has anyone ran into a situation where you pulled the vacuum so low when you shut the valve off to check if it holds and next time when you turn on the vacuum pump and flip the valve back open it took all the vacuum pump oil into the system? And what should I do? Do I need to clean out the lineset all over again? Will keep pulling vacuum would pull the oil back out? Thanks yall
 
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.