grounding, not enough

[timjimbob]

Had an issue that electrified the water pipes, and cast iron pipes in a rent house. We could not bond or add enough grounding rods to eliminate the problem. Two more 6 foot rods, ties to underground copper pipe to back yard hydrant. All existing grounding was proper. Had to have tenants move out because of shocking shower.

Problem was bad neutral at pole. power company says they are not liable for condition of power quality coming into the residence.

I felt exposed to a law suit even though I had done everything I can to safeguard my tenants.

How should I make this situation safer, in future situations.

[James Colver]

You should get a licensed electrician out there right away. Maybe your grounding isn't proper but maybe somehow an electrified wire has come in contact with your pipes.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

That sounds real nice and all - but in the law is a concept called: Implied Fitness For Purpose. Someone cannot sell you something intended for a specific purpose which is not fit for that purpose.

Have your attorney remind the power company of this basic point of Law and you may well find their attitude toward your concerns will improve.

PHM
-------

Had an issue that electrified the water pipes, and cast iron pipes in a rent house. We could not bond or add enough grounding rods to eliminate the problem. Two more 6 foot rods, ties to underground copper pipe to back yard hydrant. All existing grounding was proper. Had to have tenants move out because of shocking shower.

Problem was bad neutral at pole. power company says they are not liable for condition of power quality coming into the residence.

I felt exposed to a law suit even though I had done everything I can to safeguard my tenants.

How should I make this situation safer, in future situations.

[ckartson]

Damn PHM you make a good lawyer too!

[kdean1]

No amount of bonding or grounding will correct an energized neutral line. The ONLY fix is to identify the source of the problem and correct it. A failed neutral is also not difficult to identify. A thorough electrician should have recognized the symptoms in short order.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Can you explain why?

It seems to me that, electrically speaking; the neutral at the transformer out on the power pole is to the ground - the dirt - the Earth connection.

In other words: "the neutral" is not hard wired back to the power plant.

So how is it different if I ground the neutral wire at the building end of the wire or at the transformer side of the wire? Why won't a driven-rod ground at the service entrance work the same at it would if the grounding rod was out at the pole?

Hmmmm . . . . Now that I am thinking about it: there really isn't any such thing as a 'neutral' connection at the transformer - is there? Isn't the primary side just 'one leg to ground' ?

Can you tell me what grounding a neutral at the building end won't work?

Oh wait - you are saying "an energized neutral" - how do you mean that? Do mean mean energized Other than through a connected load? All neutrals are "energized" in any working circuit situation - right?

Whew! OK; your turn. <g>


PHM
-----------

No amount of bonding or grounding will correct an energized neutral line. The ONLY fix is to identify the source of the problem and correct it. A failed neutral is also not difficult to identify. A thorough electrician should have recognized the symptoms in short order.

[kdean1]

Can you explain why?

It seems to me that, electrically speaking; the neutral at the transformer out on the power pole is to the ground - the dirt - the Earth connection.

In other words: "the neutral" is not hard wired back to the power plant.

So how is it different if I ground the neutral wire at the building end of the wire or at the transformer side of the wire? Why won't a driven-rod ground at the service entrance work the same at it would if the grounding rod was out at the pole?

Hmmmm . . . . Now that I am thinking about it: there really isn't any such thing as a 'neutral' connection at the transformer - is there? Isn't the primary side just 'one leg to ground' ?

Can you tell me what grounding a neutral at the building end won't work?

Oh wait - you are saying "an energized neutral" - how do you mean that? Do mean mean energized Other than through a connected load? All neutrals are "energized" in any working circuit situation - right?

Whew! OK; your turn. <g>


PHM
-----------

My first reference was to a situation I encountered years ago in which two service cables touched each other near the pole. Over time the neutral wire of one service drop rubbed through the insulation on a wire of the other service and had 120 potential volts (energized). All the devices in the house that were were to be 120 from the other side of the service to neutral were now 240 volts. The painter's radio blew upas a result. The house and electrical system were so old that the service did not have a ground.

[billygoat22]

I've seen where the neutral to pole was lost in the meter, multiple times. (this will come up on search engine well enough) the L1/L2 voltages will float based on what loads are running, 120/120, 80/160, etc.
So there is a ground, but weird voltages.

It could be a bonding issue internal to the meter or panel box that's allowing voltage to tub. I've seen the telephone do this to support column in basement (can't explain that one). also, hot refer line on heat pump evap coil- no ground connection in ht pump condensor and had one leg shorted to "ground" or rather unit cabinet.

maybe there's plastic in the plumbing off wh, and weak ground on wh, which would allow voltage?

[rsmith46]

The neutral is a grounded current carrying conductor. It is grounded at the transformer and at the house main disconnecting source.
What you have is a ground fault situation, most likely one of the 120v power conductors is grounding to the plumbing system somewhere. Its just not a good enough of a short to trip the breaker. Best way to find the problem is find which breaker kills the problem when turned off and trace out the wiring for that circuit till you find the short. You need an electrician before you or somebody gets killed.

[wolfdog]

The neutral is a zero reference for the service and also carries the unbalanced phase current.
If something happens to the neutral at your building or house; the zero reference is gone so voltages can get weird. And also the unbalanced current is trying to get back to the transformer. It will travel thru your plumbing pipes, thru the ground and to someone else's plumbing\ electric\neutral or maybe back to the ground wire at the transformer pole. It will travel thru whichever has the lowest overall impedance.

[rsmith46]

You have 2 problems, 1- neutral was lost at transformer, 2- energized [hot] is in contact with plumbing somewhere.

[timjimbob]

You have 2 problems, 1- neutral was lost at transformer, 2- energized [hot] is in contact with plumbing somewhere.

I did not have #2 issue. Here is why,Hot goes through 120 load then onto neutral that is not connected to pole

[cehs]

I believe the proper electrical description is a "Floating Neutral".
When this occurs, anything goes. Goes to heck that is.
I saw a mobile home that had a floating neutral at the pole (out in the country).
I measured 148 VAC on one side of the home, and 68 VAC on the other side of the home.
I also measured the voltage in another home, in the distribution (breaker) panel, and the 120 V lugs were up and down and all over the place, but the 240 was steady as a rock. (that house burned down 6 months later).

[m singer]

Had an issue that electrified the water pipes, and cast iron pipes in a rent house. We could not bond or add enough grounding rods to eliminate the problem. Two more 6 foot rods, ties to underground copper pipe to back yard hydrant. All existing grounding was proper. Had to have tenants move out because of shocking shower.

Problem was bad neutral at pole. power company says they are not liable for condition of power quality coming into the residence.

I felt exposed to a law suit even though I had done everything I can to safeguard my tenants.

How should I make this situation safer, in future situations.

Grounding rods are completely useless for preventing shock and that was never their purpose anyway.

[timjimbob]

"Grounding rods are completely useless for preventing shock and that was never their purpose anyway. "


Why are they required then, what is their role?

[VTP99]

Lighting strikes

[timebuilder]

Had an issue that electrified the water pipes, and cast Iron pipes in a rent house. We could not bond or add enough grounding rods to eliminate the problem. Two more 6 foot rods, ties to underground copper pipe to back yard hydrant. All existing grounding was proper. Had to have tenants move out because of shocking shower.

Problem was bad neutral at pole. power company says they are not liable for condition of power quality coming into the residence.

I felt exposed to a law suit even though I had done everything I can to safeguard my tenants.

How should I make this situation safer, in future situations.

Have the neutral repaired. Follow up with a call to the utility company ombudsman if the electrician says it is the utiliy's responsibility.

[madhat]

I knew someone who had a brand new fiberglass swimming pool they couldn't use, due to getting shocked. It even did this with the meter pulled. Lawsuit went on for over two years, because the utility wouldn't admit the problem was theirs. They finally had to run six miles of neutral wire. The damages trail was in the millions, LOL.

[Zmaniac]

Had to chime in on this old thread.When I worked for the Gas Company I had a Gas Supply line coming in from the Main to the House,was Hot as Hell.Put my volt stick to it,sure enough it was electrified.Was acting as some sort of Neutral or Ground.If you disconnected the Gas pipe,the lights in the House would go dull,and all electrical would start to buzz.Turns out other houses in the Neighborhood had some similar issues,but no one could figure where the problem originated from,untill now!Talk about a hair-raising experience!

[Juan Madera]

Requirement is a 25 ohm ground to rod. Do the math. That is a lot of current looking for a place to go if the neutral is defective on the utility or user side..... The farther you are from the substation, the larger the resistance and the greater the potential.