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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    91
    Post Likes
    Originally posted by dan sw fl
    Originally posted by pyropaul

    1. Age: 5 months
    2. Location: Sherbooke, Quebec
    H.D.D. October 2005 to end of Jan 2006: 4160

    House is
    3100 square feet
    1550 square foot basement

    3. Equipment: ClimateMaster GSV048
    a) Age: 5 months
    b) Ground Source Heat Pump ........ Back-UP
    c) Efficiency:
    C.O.P. 3.5 @ 35F inlet temp and
    flow 8Kw Wirsbo six zone radiant floor on 1st floor
    4. Fuel Use /Cost (note converted to US$):
    a. Electric: 9420 kWh.....$0.0426/Kw-Hr (4 months)

    [Edited by pyropaul on 02-13-2006 at 01:35 PM]
    VERY Economical heating from my viewpoint.
    Q= Factor * Area * HDD
    1 - Factor for 5 month old residence = 5.9
    2 - Factor for 108 year old Montreal residence with
    ' new ' Climatemaster H.P. = 9.1
    _________________________________

    Developing a reliable Factor to address significant variety of equipment age along with bldg types/age
    does NOT appear that it will be easy to derive.

    Paul, my Canadian friend, I appreciate the data.
    You're welcome. I'm not surprised how good the figure is for the new house: the walls are R29 and the roof is R50(ish); all windows are argon filled low e coated. Also, both walls and 2nd floor ceiling have double foil coated 1" polyisocyanurate rigid foam boards (R7) as vapour and radiant heat barrier. The 2x6 walls are fibre glass filled and the roof is cellulose. Sills and joints between floors were polyurethane sprayed.

    Cheers,

    Paul.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    86
    Post Likes
    House location: Surrey, B.C. (suburb of Vancouver B.C.) 1/2 mile North of Blaine Washington.
    House built in 1984. Inside sq. ft. 1760. Rancher on 4 ft crawl space.
    House Wall insulation R12. Crawlspace wall insulation R12.
    All windows and glass doors double glazed in aluminum frame.
    Ceiling insulation R28.
    2 occupants in the house. Both retired.
    Thermostat setting 68*F in daytime; 64*F between 9pm and 6am.

    Heating degree-days Celsius for Vancouver B.C. (below 18*C) =2926 D.D.*C

    Heating & hot water:
    Up to June 2003. Lennox natural gas furnace (60% eff. ?); 50 gal. gashot water tank. Natural gas fireplace.

    June 2003 to June 2004. Lennox 80% gas furnace; 50 gal. gas hot water tank. Natural gas fireplace.

    June 2004 to present. Carrier 38YXA 2 ton heat pump and Lennox 80% gas furnace. 50 gal. hot water tank. Natural gas fireplace.

    Energy Unit rates in Canadian dollars:
    Electricity. Basic charge $0.12/day; $0.06/kwh

    Gas. Basic charge $11.12/month; commodity chg. $9.79/GJ; Delivery chg. $2.88/GJ.

    June, 2002 to June 2003.
    Electricity 7592 kwh or 27.33 GJ
    Gas 126.3 GJ
    Total energy used 153.63 GJ.

    June 2003 to June 2004
    Electricity 7562 kwh or 27.22 GJ
    Gas 102.5 GJ
    total Energy used 129.72 GJ

    June 2004 to June 2005
    Electricity 9068 kwh or 32.64 GJ
    Gas 71.3 GJ
    Total energy used 103.94 GJ
    Note: Heat pump was switched off during 2 coldest months.

    June 2005 to end of Jan./2006
    Electricity 5956 kwh or 21.4 GJ
    Gas 29.2 GJ
    Total energy used 29.2 GJ




    [Edited by deme on 02-14-2006 at 11:43 AM]

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Huntsville,AL
    Posts
    4,125
    Post Likes
    I suggest posting of May | June (whichever has the least energy used, which will equal everything but heating) as well as the Jan usage which gives good winter usage, without the holiday influence.

    I have sent Dan two yr of data for my Daughter's 1915 house in Ft Wayne IN.

    Dan, maybe we need a matrix of what upgrades have been done to houses >10 y/o, maybe for all = storm win, storm dr, attic insul to now recommended value, wall insul, fully exposed to winds, etc. Better would be to have a heat load calc value.
    harvest rainwater,make SHADE,R75/50/30= roof/wall/floor, use HVAC mastic,caulk all wall seams!

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    86
    Post Likes
    Too late to edit my original post.
    Here is info. on my house for summer and winter 1 month periods.

    June 22 to July 23, 2005:
    Gas 1.9 GJ
    June 24 to July 23, 2005:
    electricity 725 kwh.

    December 23 2005 to January 24, 2006
    Gas 5GJ
    December 22, 2005 to January 24, 2006
    Electricity 1337 kwh

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    9,712
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Originally posted by deme
    Here is info. on my house for summer and winter 1 month periods.
    June 22 to July 23, 2005: Gas 1.9 GJ
    June 24 to July 23, 2005: Electricity 725 kwh.

    December 23 2005 to Jan 24, 2006 Gas 5GJ
    December 22, 2005 to Jan 24, 2006 Electricity 1337 kwh
    Thanks.

    1 GigaJoule = 947 817.08 BTU
    ................= nearly 1 million BTU

    or _____________ 10 Therms

    [Edited by dan sw fl on 02-16-2006 at 06:20 PM]
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,042
    Post Likes
    1. 1700 square foot two story condo, built 1981. Manual J indicates heat gain ~21k and heat loss ~34k for indoor design temps of 70/75 and outdoor design temps... hmm, I forget... the ones chosen by HVAC-Calc.


    2. Atlanta, GA (30329). 1616 annual HDD.

    3. Current dual fuel HVAC installed 2004- attic system.
    HP: Carrier 38YXA024 two ton heat pump, CK3BA030 coil. ARI ref. 360575; 13.5 SEER, 7.8 HSPF. COP is 3.26 @ 47, 2.36 @ 17.
    Backup: Carrier 58CVA070 variable speed 80% furnace.
    Control system: Infinity. System provides defrost tempering and always finishes the entire call for heat once the furnace has lit to provide the defrost tempering. Defrost control is time/temp, 90 minutes. Except for unusually cold winter days, this is the only reason the furnace ever has to run. Balance point (experimentally determined) is around 30 degrees.

    4. Energy
    Rates-----
    Gross electric rates May-September ~9.5k/kwh, ~8c/kwh otherwise
    Gas: ~$20/month base charge; I got lucky and locked in a rate of about $1.10/therm (after taxes) for May 05-May 06
    Consumption----
    Typical summer electric bill 1050 kwh, $102. Lowest consumption recorded during a month with no conditioning needs was 700 kwh (computers, refrigerator, dishwasher, electric dryer, etc), so assume typical summer consumption of 350 kwh for cooling.
    Typical winter electric bill 1000 kwh, $81. Again, assuming that only the consumption beyond 700 kwh was used for space conditioning, so 300 kwh for the heat pump.
    Typical winter gas bill ~35 therms, $63. Probably 20-25 therms was for space heating and humidification.

    Confounders:
    Gas water heater- ~12 therms/month during non-heating months; I'd assume the same during heating season except for the bypass humidifier that is connected to the hot water supply.

    I also have consumption information for the same structure with the previous HVAC, a vintage 1981 Carrier "horseshoe" AC and noncondensing furnace with pilot. Monthly utility data is in Excel, will email to Dan.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    9,712
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter

    Thumbs up Correlations in more detail ?

    Originally posted by wyounger
    1. 1700 square foot two story condo, built 1981.

    Manual J
    heat gain ~21k
    heat loss ~34k
    for indoor design temps of 70/75 and
    outdoor design temps... hmm, I forget
    Atlanta, GA (30329). 1616 annual HDD.

    Current dual fuel HVAC installed 2004- attic system.
    HP: Carrier 38YXA024 two ton heat pump, CK3BA030 coil.
    ARI ref. 360575; 13.5 SEER, 7.8 HSPF. COP is 3.26 @ 47, 2.36 @ 17.

    Backup: Carrier 58CVA070 variable speed 80% furnace.

    Defrost control is time/temp, 90 minutes.
    Except for unusually cold winter days, this is the only reason the furnace ever has to run.
    Balance point (experimentally determined)
    is around 30 degrees.

    Gas: ~$20/month base charge; I got lucky and locked in a rate of about $1.10/therm (after taxes) for May 05-May 06

    typical summer consumption of 350 kwh for cooling.

    Typical winter electric bill 1000 kwh, $81.

    Again, assuming that only the consumption beyond 700 kwh was used for space conditioning, so 300 kwh for the heat pump.

    Typical winter gas bill ~35 therms, $63. Probably 20-25 therms was for space heating and humidification.
    Q = Area * HDD * Factor

    per Heating Season (4+ months)
    Heat Factor= Q/(Area*HDD)
    Q= 4 x 35 x 100,000 BTU
    Area * HDD = 1,700 * 1660 = sq.ft.-'F

    Factor = 14,000,000 BTU for 4 months/ 2,7209,000
    Factor = 5.15 or somewhere in that range.

    <6 = Very Low
    More rigorous review of monthly data is needed (later)
    to correlate comsumption exactly with H.D.D.

    I have not subtracted the "other consumption" in previous cases (K.I.S.S.)

    Mucho Gratias
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Huntsville,AL
    Posts
    4,125
    Post Likes
    I feel for you not in TVA land, but can't quite reach you--
    Our residential rates in Huntsville AL went down in Oct06 -- as reflected in Nov06 & later billings:
    elec:
    base=5.77 [no change]
    first 1440kwh @ 0.06481/ kwh
    rest @ 0.07282
    ntl gas:
    base=2.50 $13.29/MCF

    Dan: how's this project going? make a request ea 2 mo for more data -- I did not see that you got enuf responses.
    Our Dec06 billing= 416DD = mild = 31 da, as read 12/21.
    Last edited by cem-bsee; 12-31-2006 at 09:56 PM.
    harvest rainwater,make SHADE,R75/50/30= roof/wall/floor, use HVAC mastic,caulk all wall seams!

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    9,712
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by cem-bsee View Post

    Dan: how's this project going? make a request ea 2 mo for more data --
    I did not see that you got enuf responses.
    Not enough data.
    Therefore, so-called Project was not developed into a meaningful, reliable procedure.

    Meaningful for Me to try to formulate some type of guidance.
    However, it would be time consuming to develop accurate guidance given building variations.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

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