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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb

    Please provide your specific data
    so that meaningful guidance may be developed for anyone
    trying to select, operate and generally evaluate either single or dual fuel (Heat Pump with Natural Gas/Liquid Propane/oil/ or electric heat strip elements) systems for our ever-changing, varied fuel costs and
    equipment efficiencies.

    1. Age of Residence: __
    2. Location: City ____ State __
    and/or Heating Degree Days per Month
    H.D.D. ______

    3. Equipment:
    a) Age: __ Years
    b) Furnace ___ Heat Pump ........ Back-UP
    c) Efficiency:
    80% __ 90% __ H.S.P.F. ____ ...
    ______________ C.O.P._______ ...

    4. Fuel Use /Cost:
    a. Electric:______,___.kW.....$0.__/Kw-Hr ($0.04 to $0.20) b. Natural Gas:_______.CCF....$1.__ /Therm (CCF)
    c. Liquid Propane:____.Gallon..$2.__ /Gallon
    d. Oil:_______________.Gallon..$2.__ /Gallon

    I will develop a
    Keep It Simple & Significant (K.I.S.S.) procedure.

    Significant: Reasonably accurate, +/-30%

    Goal: One ought to be able to immediately evaluate when their fuel bill is >~40% over a reasonable amount
    so that necessary remediation
    or root cause determination is initiated.

    Empirical Factor= 6 to 18 ?
    : Approximate number To Be Determined based on survey of
    age of residence and equipment.

    i.e. A 100+ year old house may use
    Twice to Four Times as much as a new house
    if infiltration remains as a huge factor.

    Monthly H.D.D.= (65'F- average temperature) x 30 days
    ......= (65-32)x 30 = ~1,000 Heating Degree Days

    Q= Heat (BTU) used in one month
    i.e. < 10 year old house
    Q= Factor x Area (Sq.Ft.)x H.D.D.
    = 10 x 2,000 x 1,000
    Q= 20,000,000 BTU/month

    ..=__ 222 Therms ( 90,000 BTU/Therm)
    ..=__ 242 Gallons ( 82,000 BTU/L.P. Gallon)
    ..=__ 171 Gallons (117,000 BTU/Gallon Oil)
    ..= 5,832 KiloWatt-Hours (3,412 BTU/Kw-Hr)
    ..= 1,953 KiloWatt-Hours (3,412 BTU/Kw-Hr x C.O.P. 3.0)
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    OK, I'll start... JANUARY 2006, source for hdd = http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/product...s/mctyhddy.txt


    1) Residence age: 3 years old, 2200 sq ft conditioned, 9ft ceilings
    2) Location, city, hdd for Jan 06: Baltimore, MD, 721 hdd
    3) Equipment: 3 years old, 80% nat gas furnace only; gas water heater @130F.
    4) Fuel use: Electric 765 kwh @ 4.05 cents/kwh (supply only); Nat Gas 111 therms @ $1.24/therm
    5) Thermostat setting 68F occupied, 60F unoccupied and night. Occupied (68F) about 60 hours/week.

    [Edited by fortressofcomfort on 02-12-2006 at 10:39 AM]

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Thread Starter

    Thumbs up I appreciate it!

    Originally posted by fortressofcomfort
    OK, I'll start... JANUARY 2006, source for hdd = http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/product...s/mctyhddy.txt
    1) 3 years old, 2200 sq ft conditioned, 9ft ceilings
    Baltimore, MD, 721 hdd, 3 years old, 80% nat gas furnace only; gas water heater @130F.

    Fuel use: Electric 765 kwh @ 4.05 cents/kwh
    Nat Gas 111 therms @ $1.24/therm

    [Edited by fortressofcomfort on 02-12-2006 at 10:39 AM]
    Fantastic & Complete info:
    111 therms yields an empirical factor of ~7.

    Factor is actaully Less when gas water heater use is subtracted.

    ALL GAS Heat assumed
    No heat pump or other heat source.

    Q = 2,200 S.F. x 721 HDD * 7 = 11,103,400 BTU
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Huntsville,AL
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    I can give a copy of my spreadsheet = Excel = for 3+ yr, with DD, $/DD/sf -- with notes of vacation dates, etc -- do you want that?

    all per Hsv Util billings = actual, with averages, totals, etc. = TVA [we are about 20mile from Brown's Ferry nuc plant]

    I also have the local costs for all fuels --

    BUT, I am not sure how is easiest to send -- call 256-859-8272 if you wish,I use dialup, have fax machine, scanner --

    [Edited by cem-bsee on 02-12-2006 at 02:34 PM]
    harvest rainwater,make SHADE,R75/50/30= roof/wall/floor, use HVAC mastic,caulk all wall seams!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Huntsville,AL
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    http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5...alfeb060me.jpg

    small -- advise if you can read

    of use?

    coal from central AL -- trucked 150 mi



    [Edited by cem-bsee on 02-12-2006 at 02:49 PM]
    harvest rainwater,make SHADE,R75/50/30= roof/wall/floor, use HVAC mastic,caulk all wall seams!

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Location
    SW FL
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    Thread Starter

    CEM-BSEE = Pro

    Originally posted by cem-bsee
    I can give a copy of my spreadsheet = Excel = for 3+ yr, with DD, $/DD/sf -- with notes of vacation dates, etc -- do you want that?

    all per Hsv Util billings = actual, with averages, totals, etc. = TVA [we are about 20mile from Brown's Ferry nuc plant]

    BUT, I am not sure how is easiest to send
    ,I use dialup,[Edited by cem-bsee on 02-12-2006 at 02:34 PM]
    E-mail of .XLS file as an attachment should be quite easy even on dial-up.

    I E-mail 10 Meg .DWG files via comcast.
    E-mail address is in profile.
    Thanks in advance.

    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Thread Starter

    .jpg and .pdf

    Originally posted by cem-bsee
    http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5...alfeb060me.jpg
    small -- advise if you can read of use?
    coal from central AL -- trucked 150 mi
    [Edited by cem-bsee on 02-12-2006 at 02:49 PM]
    Thanks, Quite Clear!
    PDF is another universal format for such items.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    St Paul, Minnesota
    Posts
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    3 (b)
    Furnace____HeatPump____ Backup______

    What about my antique boiler with radiators?

    and what is _____C O P ______?

    [Edited by MikeJ on 02-12-2006 at 03:41 PM]

  9. #9
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    Feb 2003
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    Huntsville,AL
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    Dan- I see your IM handle, nothing about eaddr in profile

    but, just found in Credentials


    [Edited by cem-bsee on 02-12-2006 at 05:12 PM]
    harvest rainwater,make SHADE,R75/50/30= roof/wall/floor, use HVAC mastic,caulk all wall seams!

  10. #10
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    Thread Starter
    Originally posted by MikeJ
    3 (b)
    Furnace____HeatPump____ Backup______
    What about my antique boiler with radiators?
    and what is _____C O P ______?

    [Edited by MikeJ on 02-12-2006 at 03:41 PM]
    COP = C oefficient Of P erformance for heat pump

    Boiler is great as along as I can determine
    fuel use and H.D.D. along with house area
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Originally posted by dan sw fl


    1. Age of Residence: __
    2. Location: City ____ State __
    and/or Heating Degree Days per Month
    H.D.D. ______

    1. Age of Residence: 108 years
    2. Location: City Montreal Quebec
    and/or Heating Degree Days per Month
    H.D.D. December 2005: 1329
    January 2006 : 1255
    Total here: 2584

    Annual average: 7560

    House is 1950 square feet, 10' ceilings on 1st floor, mix of 8'3" and 9' on 2nd floor, 900 square foot basement also heated but is unfinished space. House is attached to the neighbour on 1 side.

    3. Equipment: ClimateMaster GSV042
    a) Age: 4 months
    b) Ground Source Heat Pump ........ Back-UP 10Kw
    c) Efficiency:
    ______________ C.O.P._______ 3.5 @ 35F inlet temp and flow

    4. Fuel Use /Cost (note converted to US$):
    a. Electric: 5600 kWh.....$0.0426/Kw-Hr (2 months)
    Natural Gas: 4 CCF....$0.96 /Therm (CCF) ( 2 months)

    (Gas usage is for hot water: the GSHP provides pre-heating).

    Thermostat is set to 69F with no setbacks, unless we're away for more than a day, in which case it may be set back to 67F (unless the weather is going to be particularly cold in which case we don't set it back).


    Paul.

    [Edited by pyropaul on 02-13-2006 at 01:34 PM]

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    1. Age of Residence: 5 months
    2. Location: City Near Sherbooke, Quebec
    and/or Heating Degree Days per Month
    H.D.D. October 2005 to end of Jan 2006: 4160


    House is 3100 square feet, 9' ceilings on 1st floor and a mix of 10'6" and 9' on the 2nd floor, 1550 square foot basement (8' 6" ceiling) also heated. Radiant heat installed on 1st floor.

    3. Equipment: ClimateMaster GSV048
    a) Age: 5 months
    b) Ground Source Heat Pump ........ Back-UP
    c) Efficiency:
    ______________ C.O.P._______ 3.5 @ 35F inlet temp and flow
    8Kw Wirsbo six zone radiant floor on 1st floor

    4. Fuel Use /Cost (note converted to US$):
    a. Electric: 9420 kWh.....$0.0426/Kw-Hr (4 months)

    The GSHP provides pre-heating for the hot water.

    Thermostat is set to 69F with no setbacks. Most of the radiant floor zones are set to 69F constant.

    Paul.

    [Edited by pyropaul on 02-13-2006 at 01:35 PM]

  13. #13
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    Thread Starter
    Originally posted by pyropaul

    1. Age: 5 months
    2. Location: Sherbooke, Quebec
    H.D.D. October 2005 to end of Jan 2006: 4160

    House is
    3100 square feet
    1550 square foot basement

    3. Equipment: ClimateMaster GSV048
    a) Age: 5 months
    b) Ground Source Heat Pump ........ Back-UP
    c) Efficiency:
    C.O.P. 3.5 @ 35F inlet temp and
    flow 8Kw Wirsbo six zone radiant floor on 1st floor
    4. Fuel Use /Cost (note converted to US$):
    a. Electric: 9420 kWh.....$0.0426/Kw-Hr (4 months)

    [Edited by pyropaul on 02-13-2006 at 01:35 PM]
    VERY Economical heating from my viewpoint.
    Q= Factor * Area * HDD
    1 - Factor for 5 month old residence = 5.9
    2 - Factor for 108 year old Montreal residence with
    ' new ' Climatemaster H.P. = 9.1
    _________________________________

    Developing a reliable Factor to address significant variety of equipment age along with bldg types/age
    does NOT appear that it will be easy to derive.

    Paul, my Canadian friend, I appreciate the data.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

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