Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 27 to 34 of 34
  1. #27
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    6
    Post Likes
    Thanks, Randy.

    Is the PID meter useful for tracking VOC sources (like hound dogging) or does it take more of an ambient room sample over time? What’s the make of the PID meter you’re using?

    I didn’t realize Phenomenal Aire used GPS hardware.

    Yesterday I used a non-contact voltage tester to ensure both legs of the bipolar needlepoints were energized. From about 4” away from each leg the sensor indicated power, but I have no idea how much. (Phenomenal Aire support says these should read around 5,000 volts on the brushes [ needlepoints ].) The installation instructions recommend place the PA after the filter in the airstream because “the filter will capture or stop the ions.” (The Phenomenal Aire is located: return -> 4” Merv 11 Media Filter -> Phenomenal Aire -> Coils -> blower -> supply.) I really wonder how many ions remain after the air passes over the coils and through the blower into the supply.

    I’d looked at that inline fan and carbon filters on Amazon and considered building a free-standing cabinet or stand for one. Thanks for sharing your experience with it. (We’re currently running an AirMega 300 [by Coway] in one bedroom and a BlueAir 402 in another. Soon we’re going to have more filters than furniture in this small humming house.) I might still buy the fan & carbon filter for a stopgap until we can get this thing figured out.

    Thanks again for your tips. They’re much appreciated.

    Frank

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    65
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank10 View Post
    Thanks, Randy.

    Is the PID meter useful for tracking VOC sources (like hound dogging) or does it take more of an ambient room sample over time? What’s the make of the PID meter you’re using?

    I didn’t realize Phenomenal Aire used GPS hardware.

    Yesterday I used a non-contact voltage tester to ensure both legs of the bipolar needlepoints were energized. From about 4” away from each leg the sensor indicated power, but I have no idea how much. (Phenomenal Aire support says these should read around 5,000 volts on the brushes [ needlepoints ].) The installation instructions recommend place the PA after the filter in the airstream because “the filter will capture or stop the ions.” (The Phenomenal Aire is located: return -> 4” Merv 11 Media Filter -> Phenomenal Aire -> Coils -> blower -> supply.) I really wonder how many ions remain after the air passes over the coils and through the blower into the supply.

    I’d looked at that inline fan and carbon filters on Amazon and considered building a free-standing cabinet or stand for one. Thanks for sharing your experience with it. (We’re currently running an AirMega 300 [by Coway] in one bedroom and a BlueAir 402 in another. Soon we’re going to have more filters than furniture in this small humming house.) I might still buy the fan & carbon filter for a stopgap until we can get this thing figured out.

    Thanks again for your tips. They’re much appreciated.

    Frank
    Hi Frank,

    The PID meter I used is a ppbRae-3000 see https://www.raesystems.com/products/ppbrae-3000.
    I rent for Pine Environmental. http://www.pine-environmental.com/
    They've got about 30 offices across the US. Pine is great, but there can be calibration issues. If you rent send me a PM I'll expand.

    Chances are, if your blower has been running, the VOCs in your residence will be equally diffused, but not necessarily.
    The PID meter provides immediate readings in real time. It's got a built in pump so it samples continuously every couple of seconds
    The PID meter is good for:
    1. Determining if you have an issue.
    2. Testing mitigation strategies immediately. A good chunk of carbon with decent air blow can reduce readings by 50% - 70% within minutes directly out of the exhaust of the fan. In a couple of hours it can reduce levels in large areas. You could also test immediately out of your registers with the fuse in and out of the Phenomenal Aire.
    3. Opening a door or window with some air flow in or out illustrates the immediate power of ventilation

    You need at least 5lbs and preferably more than 15lbs of carbon to be effective. I don't think the AirMeag has much and not sure about the Blue Air.
    I think some of their models at one time had useful levels of carbon.

    If your HEPAs help your wife then your issue is Particulate pollution, if not then VOCs could be the culprit. Keep in mind these are two distinct animals. Also keep in mind that VOCs in the air are off gassing from solids/liquids on your surfaces. That's a massively under appreciated fact.


    For a 100 -200 bucks you can rent a kit or passive device to accurately measure VOC levels .
    See:
    www.fikeanalytical.com
    https://homeaircheck.com/products/
    https://www.assaytech.com/

    The first two companies provide a suction device to take an air sample. The sample is returned and results are available in about a week max.
    The 3rd link provides passive badges that are left exposed for 24 hours and then returned. Results available in about a week.

    I'm planning a massive post soon on all issues related to indoor VOCs soon.

    Randy

  3. #29
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    6
    Post Likes
    Thanks for the great info and links, Randy.

    I look forward to your post on VOCs. Will you be posting here or on a blog?


    Frank

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    65
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank10 View Post
    Thanks for the great info and links, Randy.

    I look forward to your post on VOCs. Will you be posting here or on a blog?


    Frank
    Hi Frank,
    The post will be here and Reddit.
    Thanks
    Randy

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    65
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank10 View Post
    Thanks, Randy.

    Yesterday I used a non-contact voltage tester to ensure both legs of the bipolar needlepoints were energized. From about 4” away from each leg the sensor indicated power, but I have no idea how much. (Phenomenal Aire support says these should read around 5,000 volts on the brushes [ needlepoints ].) The installation instructions recommend place the PA after the filter in the airstream because “the filter will capture or stop the ions.” (The Phenomenal Aire is located: return -> 4” Merv 11 Media Filter -> Phenomenal Aire -> Coils -> blower -> supply.) I really wonder how many ions remain after the air passes over the coils and through the blower into the supply.
    Frank
    Quick note Frank. The only way I know of to see if the Phenomenal Air is producing both positive and negative ions is with this device - https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/aic/
    The other big question is if these ions actually degrade VOCs. Most of the Cold Plasma Devices that I've seen in the science literature that degrade some VOCs often use catalyst. Also these devices use a totally different method to produce ions than the GPS technology. Some of the consumeer manufacturers of these devices claim that the positve and negative ions cause VOCs to congeal and form larger particles that fall to the ground or can be trapped by filters (including HEPA). Even if true (and that's a big if) that is not degrading VOCs. When these devices are noted in the science literature they can degrade VOCs through an oxidizing process similar to what happens with PCO technology.
    I'm really interested in testing the GPS technology, lots of folks rave about it. GPS's video are impressive under contrived conditions. Seems to work for cigarette smoke in a very small compartment, but smoke is particulate matter not VOCs. And - a small fish bowl is not 5000cu ft living room.

    Randy

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    1,371
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by randyf View Post
    Quick note Frank. The only way I know of to see if the Phenomenal Air is producing both positive and negative ions is with this device - https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/aic/
    The other big question is if these ions actually degrade VOCs. Most of the Cold Plasma Devices that I've seen in the science literature that degrade some VOCs often use catalyst. Also these devices use a totally different method to produce ions than the GPS technology. Some of the consumeer manufacturers of these devices claim that the positve and negative ions cause VOCs to congeal and form larger particles that fall to the ground or can be trapped by filters (including HEPA). Even if true (and that's a big if) that is not degrading VOCs. When these devices are noted in the science literature they can degrade VOCs through an oxidizing process similar to what happens with PCO technology.
    I'm really interested in testing the GPS technology, lots of folks rave about it. GPS's video are impressive under contrived conditions. Seems to work for cigarette smoke in a very small compartment, but smoke is particulate matter not VOCs. And - a small fish bowl is not 5000cu ft living room.

    Randy
    GPS claims their sensors detect both ions: https://gpshvac.com/sensors

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    65
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by rjk_cmh View Post
    GPS claims their sensors detect both ions: https://gpshvac.com/sensors
    Thanks - I wasn't aware of that.
    I also see they are offering MOS technology VOC detectors. This technology, as far as VOCs goes has limitations. I don't know which company's
    chip they are using but these devices have not been established with regards to VOC testing.

    All GPS or any of these other companies has to do is measure TVOCs in a rationally controlled manner. Take samples with a PID meter or GC testing before and after turning their device on. MoleKule, of which I have been critical, at least has done this by a reputable 3rd party. GPS has no problem showing they can control mold or cigar smoke in a small fish bowl (and how that relates to a 5000cu ft living room is questionable) but I"ve seen no effort on their part to show they degrade/oxidize VOCs.

    I approach them for a return if their device didn't work and I also offered to share my test results with them. I agreed to not post anything without their permission. They turned me down.

    I still plan on testing somehow and I would be a strong advocate if it works. And you know what - it might work. Just a shame they haven't provided any good evidence that it does. I'm only speaking of VOCs. It might be effective for biologicals and particulates.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    6
    Post Likes
    Thanks for the AlphaLab link, Randy.

    A little searching and I see that Phenomenal Aire also sells a duct-mounted ion meter under its commercial product. (I can't post a link due to forum restrictions, but it's under the commercial section of their website.

    I wonder if this built with GPS guts from the link RJK provided.

    My wife is out of the house so I’m running the heat mode and fan on continuous trying to burn off any dust on the heat strip and set free anything that might have grown on the 2-month-old evap coil during cooling. Phenomenal Aire is on. Dylos showed particle counts low and falling until I opened the windows. (A neighbor has a fireplace or firepit going.) No odor when only the fan is running, but under heating (strip or coil) there is some dusty odor. This isn’t the first run of the season, so I’m a little disappointed that there is still an odor.

    I'm temped to clean the evap coil with Pro-Green (Diversitech), but at 2 months in it seems overkill...unless the coils were warehoused in cave prior to installation.

    Frank

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor MagazineThe place where Electrical professionals meet.