Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 33
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    15,738
    Post Likes
    Lots of pics here, enjoy.

    For $6k from this outfit you get upgraded from a 4 ton system to a 5 ton Puron system with a 125k BTU single stage furnace and a slab coil connected to the existing supply and return plenums with no ductwork upgrades.
    Never mind that the house only actually needs a 4 ton cooling system, and that the heating load comes up to 82k BUTH.

    Outside you get a new condensor pad plopped down on top of the old crumbling condensor pad, and the unit flopped down on top of it, to close to the wall, and with no attempt at leveling it. No cover on the refrigerant lines.


    System was low of refrigerant, installing contractor has added refrigerant to it twice, then 2 weeks ago one of thier techs said it was overcharged and vented an unknown quantity of R-410a to "correct" the charge. Yes, he just let it blow out while the customer was standing there talking to him.
    I didn't find any leaks outside, and I was getting pressures and temperatures that indicated an airflow problem, so I went up into the attic to find this.




    Couldn't help but notice how ugly the radical transition from the new coil to the old supply plenum was.


    The old return plenum at least is close to the size of the new furnace, still fugly though.
    Whats that? A 20x20x1 filter rack on this 5 ton cooling, 125k btuh heating system! More on that later.


    The coil install with the uninsulated line between the TXV and coil, and the condensate leak that looks like it has been leaking since day 1, is about par for the course so far.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    15,738
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    So, lets see what kind of static pressures this system is running.

    First the ESP.

    HOLLY CRAP!


    Lets see where the problem is.

    The supply static. Hmm, kinda low.


    Now the return static.

    BINGO!


    Lets revisit that 20x20x1 filter. I'm thinking the MERV11 pleated filter in there is causing some of the problem, they have in 100% of the systems I have found them in.

    Yeah, I think that is just a little excessive of a pressure drop through a CLEAN filter!


    So, now I'm all smug thinking I found the problem with this system. Not done yet!

    ESP with no filter in place.


    The system really needs more return ductwork, and a better filter setup, but the supply has a problem too.

    It seems that radical transition from the coil to the old supply plenum is causing a significant pressure drop.


    I never did find a refrigerant leak, but holly cow, its gona run into some $$$$ to fix this mess.

    If any of you in the DFW area of Texas work for the company named on the sticker on the condensing unit in the first picture, I hope this isn't the norm for your company....

    [Edited by mark beiser on 08-08-2005 at 11:57 PM]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    5,492
    Post Likes
    Nice meter. I need one of those. My last one (a gauge type maganhelic) was stolen and haven't replaced it yet.


    Don't you love how some people are proud to install higher end equipment like shit?

    I don't see any of them style furnaces either down here. What is the model number?

    Everything here is like 58ZAV115-16, etc. 80% is all they need here.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    15,738
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Originally posted by PaysonHVAC
    I don't see any of them style furnaces either down here. What is the model number?
    You have probably seen this furnace many times, with many different brand names.

    It is a Ducane dedicated horizontal furnace that Carrier put thier name on. Just about all of the big name manufacturers have stuck thier name on these things. Thin metal and cheep build quality, but they have proven to be very reliable.

    Carrier model number is 58EFB125-20
    125k btuh, 2000 cfm blower

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Gone
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Likes
    This is the three cases of beer special, which is 1 case for each major component installed for the day labor. That is about all they made on the job too if that is all they are charging. I guess they needed to give the guys some hours.

    What an embarrassment to the trade.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,722
    Post Likes
    No pride in that job. That's horrible looking. What a waste.

    Nice job on the static readings. I'm learning more about it and how it effects the airflow. You got that Dwyer 475-1T-FM-AV kit correct? I've been looking into purchasing one.
    Get back to work.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    1,680
    Post Likes
    The sad part is that the homeowners usually have no idea or way of knowing whether it's a good install or a bad install. All they know is they paid quite a bit of money and it's got a Carrier label on it, lucky if they even know what brand it is.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    5,492
    Post Likes
    I don't think I've seen any of them models here at all.

    Almost all Carrier's here are the 58ZAV series

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Coffeepot, Ohio
    Posts
    275
    Post Likes
    Originally posted by mark beiser
    then 2 weeks ago one of thier techs said it was overcharged and vented an unknown quantity of R-410a to "correct" the charge. Yes, he just let it blow out while the customer was standing there talking to him.

    Hope he at least had the sense to blow it from the high side...
    If you can't push; pull... If you can't pull; GET OUT OF THE WAY!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    47
    Post Likes

    Question

    Originally posted by hvaclmnop
    Originally posted by mark beiser
    then 2 weeks ago one of thier techs said it was overcharged and vented an unknown quantity of R-410a to "correct" the charge. Yes, he just let it blow out while the customer was standing there talking to him.

    Hope he at least had the sense to blow it from the high side...

    WOW. I thought u could get charged" big bucks for venting.. that sounds like demaximus not deminums (sp)

    prolly not the installers fault there... looks like they did a good job sealing it with duct sealer. I wonder who sold that.... like i tell my wife bigger is not always better....
    If its worth doing, it's worth doing right.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    12,994
    Post Likes
    In the 1st picture, are those the main auxillary drains running thru a garden hose?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    15,738
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Originally posted by the dangling wrangler
    In the 1st picture, are those the main auxillary drains running thru a garden hose?
    No, thats just a water hose coiled up around a wall bracket.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    15,738
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    We went back and fixed this system, so I thought I would post an update.

    New supply plenum that fits the coil. Got rid of all the short radius elbows that were used to connect the old metal ductowrk to the old plenum. All takeoffs from the middle of the sides, top and bottom of the plenum, old plenum had all the takeoffs to close to the end. Reconnected each duct with about 6' of flex duct to quiet the system down.


    Installed an Aprilaire 2200 air cleaner and new return plenum. Did the same thing here with the flex duct as we did for the supply.


    Added this 16" return duct.


    Added new 25x20 cieling return for the new return duct.


    Cleaned up the drains and insulated the TXV. Found out the furnace and coil were out of level away from the drains. Properly leveled everything and the condensate leak stopped.


    So how much did all this help the system?
    Quite a bit, .70 in WC is damn good for a 5 ton system with a single media air cleaner. I wanted to transition the return out for 2 Aprilaire 2200 air cleaners, but there wasn't any room.


    The blower performance chart indicates 1870 CFM at .7 ESP. I'm happy with 374 CFM per ton with a clean filter. Even at .8 ESP, the system will still be moving >350 CFM per ton, so the system will maintain acceptable airflow as the filter loads.


    We changed all the registers out in the home too, but a picture of those would be kinda pointless.

    This work cost the homeowner almost half as much as he origonally paid for the system.

    The system now has proper airflow, doesn't leak water down the side of the house, and is so quiet that the only area in the house where you can hear it running is in the hallway where we added a large cieling return. There was a lot of noise from the ductwork before, even though the system was barely pushing enough air for a 3.5 ton system.

    The origonal contractor left a lot of money on the table by not selling the job properly, and definatly lost this customer, and anyone he tells his story to.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •