New System - Several Problems

[HiPresto]

Hi. I hope you can help my Mom.

She just had a new furnace installed, with some new ducting. There are several problems, which the contractor seems to disregard:

1. There is a cool to cold breeze that can be felt from waist level down when the furnace is on. This never happened with the old furnace.

2. There is no airflow at all coming from the hallway register. The damper is wide open.

3. There is little airflow coming from one of the living room registers.

4. The temperature in the house never equalizes. When the furnace cycles off, it is warm in the top half of the room, and almost 10 degrees cooler from the waist down. If you're sitting down, you're cold.

5. The registers in the bedrooms seem to have little airflow of differing degrees. The bedrooms never feel warm. Before the new ducts/registers were added, the single ceiling register in the hall warmed the bedrooms.

6. LOUD.

7. The furnace runs a lot. Maybe 10 minutes off, and then on again.

Here's what I need to know...what's wrong here? What can I tell the contractor to make him understand my mom is colder with the furnace on than off?

They did a blower door test and checked the system for leaks in the attic space and said that she needs double-pane windows, and that would make everything alright. Really? There is no crack or gaping hole in the wall.

Why the cold breeze in the room, when the air coming out of the ducts is barely moving? I understand that heat escaping will make the room cool down quicker, but the breeze?

I have read many threads on this excellent forum, and have included below as much information as I think you might need to evaluate the situation. If you need more info, just ask. I'm here with her right now, and can get whatever other info needed.

Details:

961 sq ft house, single story, built in 1958. Original windows, doors. Rockwool insulation.

Bryant 311JAV024070 in garage.

2 returns, 23"x8", hard rectangular duct; 1 direct to furnace, 1 12' run w/ 90 degree bend

8 registers; 3- 13"x5" ceiling registers fed off new 6" flex ducts to bedrooms, (all 3 split off 10" flex attached to plenum); 2- 8" round ceiling registers (kitchen and dining room) fed off 8" hard ducts; 1- 10" round ceiling register in hallway fed off 10" hard duct; two 13"x5" wall registers in living room - 1 fed directly off plenum in wall, one fed off 10" hard duct run in garage. All hard duct original to house and fiberglass insulated - flex was all newly installed with Bryant furnace.

I know this is a lot, but I wanted to be thorough. Thank you so much for your consideration.

-HiPresto.

[REP]

OK some things you should know.
Your furnace is a little big but not too much and not a concern.
Registers and grilles are measured by the duct connection and not the side to you including flange.Because of that I am assuming that your wall registers are 12x4.I'm guessing that your round registers are correct but then again they should reflect duct size.
Hard duct purchased from the local wholesale supplier is in even increments,so unless your contractor made his own duct your return duct is either 24x8 or 22x8.
Now something you did not tell us is the size and location of your return grilles.
Let me tell you a true story.I once bought a small cottage on a beautiful little lake.
The one thing I didn't like about it was that it had an old oil furnace that was easily 3 times to big for this 850 sq ft cottage.
The first sunday I lived there i was sitting at my kitchen table drinking coffee and reading the papewr.Very quickly i noticed how cold I was.I sat there an lookwed around and noticed that it had all round cieling registers and only one return grille in the door to the small area that contained the furnace.I then turned my contractor eyes on and watched how the furnace would come on blow 2-3 ft down.The heat hugged the cieling until it came down to the level of the thermostat then shut off.Since while sitting at the table only the very top of my head was at stat level I was cold.
I put in a 40000 gas furnace gas,changed the cieling registers to retangular with an 8' throw,installe3d real returns in each room and replaced the flex with hard pipe.The result was I was warm as a bug in the rug.
So I am thinking that you have several problems.You have some wrong registers,you have poorly installed flex and your returns are too small and not located properly.
At least thats what I see from 1000 miles away

[HiPresto]

Thanks for responding, REP. I'll clarify some things...

First, the 13x5 ceiling registers are actually 14x6, I guess. I took off the grille and measured the outlet. They are fed by the 6" flex.

The round ceiling registers are correctly noted in size and supply.

The living room wall registers are also 14x6 - I had measured the louvered part of the grille.

I did mention the size, though not the location of the return grilles...they are indeed 24x8 (again, measured the louvered part so I thought they were 23x8)...and they are located in the living room and dining room.

I went up into the attic space to take a look at the new ducting...and I see that a couple of the 6" runs are fairly taut, while one of them is much looser. They are suspended, but one of them seems to be choked by the strap. Should they be looser and meet the register connector at a gentle curve, or taut and meet at an angle? I need to know so I can tell the contractor which one is wrong. I get the idea that he thinks since my mom is a single older woman living alone that she knows nothing about what the installation should be. It angers me, actually.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I fear that you are right...and that I might have a fight on my hands.

If you have any further thoughts, or if anyone reading this wants to weigh in...please do. And I thank you in advance.

-HiPresto.

[dandyme]

1- if it was just installed .......they need to get the installers back out to determine problem and come up with a resolution

2- with out visiting and surveying the installation and issues...........no one is going to tell you what the problem is or what the corrections will be


3- now, that being said .............why hasn't the installing contractor been notified and responded to concerns?

[keeplearnin]

maybe and I'm just saying maybe he installed it.

[dandyme]

[HiPresto]

Most certainly I did NOT install it. Why would you suggest such a thing? I thought this forum was for people who had problems and constructive suggestions. My 76-year-old mother called me and asked for my help, as she was not able to get the contractor to address her concerns.

I am doing what I regard as due diligence to inform myself, as much as possible, as to the causes and potential solutions so that I will give the contractor as little wiggle room as possible, should he decide to treat me as if I were a know-nothing. And I thought this the best venue to access professionals who might be able to give me the information I desperately need.

Now that I have explained myself...perhaps you will think more highly of me?

She was told that they balanced the airflow as best they could, and that was that. I am going to attempt to get more action out of them tomorrow.

[tominos]

in for updates, i'm interested in what you figure out too.

[HiPresto]

Well, I talked to the contractor. Here is what he said...

Since my Mom's house is small, he says, it is difficult to get things right. He says that he himself lives in a similar house and he too has similar issues with his own system.

According to him, this is the smallest blower that can be had in a modern furnace. He says that with such a small house, with limited places to put returns, you will inevitably have a breeze effect when the furnace is on.

Also, since there are only two returns, the air supply to the bedrooms will never truly warm the rooms to the extent that the living room's supply. He says that his own bedrooms are on average 10 degrees colder than the rest of the house.

He says that stratification is the result of lack of insulation below the floor, and that when we get insulation there, things will not swing so much from ceiling to floor.

When pressed for creative solutions, he mentioned that perhaps changing the blower speed (slower) might help. He put the blower on medium speed and said that further balancing the registers might help.

I guess my Mom will live with it and see what happens.

Thanks to REP for your suggestions...and to Dandyme for sticking up for me.

It's not over, but I don't see there's anything else to do at this point.

-HiPresto.

[Mr Bill]

2. There is no airflow at all coming from the hallway register. The damper is wide open.

3. There is little airflow coming from one of the living room registers.

5. The registers in the bedrooms seem to have little airflow
Why the cold breeze in the room, when the air coming out of the ducts is barely moving?

When pressed for creative solutions, he mentioned that perhaps changing the blower speed (slower) might help.

Yes, slowing the blower will surly take care of the 2-3-5 issues.

[dan wong]

Well, I talked to the contractor. Here is what he said...

Since my Mom's house is small, he says, it is difficult to get things right. He says that he himself lives in a similar house and he too has similar issues with his own system.

According to him, this is the smallest blower that can be had in a modern furnace. He says that with such a small house, with limited places to put returns, you will inevitably have a breeze effect when the furnace is on.

Also, since there are only two returns, the air supply to the bedrooms will never truly warm the rooms to the extent that the living room's supply. He says that his own bedrooms are on average 10 degrees colder than the rest of the house.

He says that stratification is the result of lack of insulation below the floor, and that when we get insulation there, things will not swing so much from ceiling to floor.

When pressed for creative solutions, he mentioned that perhaps changing the blower speed (slower) might help. He put the blower on medium speed and said that further balancing the registers might help.

I guess my Mom will live with it and see what happens.

Thanks to REP for your suggestions...and to Dandyme for sticking up for me.

It's not over, but I don't see there's anything else to do at this point.

-HiPresto.

Don't know where you are at, In Arizona, we have "registrar of contractor" They are licensing branch of the government. Your state may have something similar. http://www.rc.state.az.us
If said contractor ignore you. you can file a complain with the "registrar of contractor". most contractor will respond quickly.

[REP]

I don't much care for your contractor.I have a feeling that he comes cheap and is overpaid at that.
One ,with the registers that have little air,it is the flex that is improperly hung or sized or both and the whole supply system is not balanced with volume dampeers.
Two , you increase the flow ,,,then you change to registers that will throw the hot air to the floor to mix with the cold air. Those will be rectangular and be like hart and cooly model 618.That will take care of the stratification problem.
Lastly you need more return air from someplace.Even if you just put transfer grilles in the bedroom doors,you need more return.

[beenthere]

Sounds a bit like a lack of return. 2-24X8's aren't much return. Returns can probably be added to the bedrooms.

[tipsrfine]

Well, I talked to the contractor. Here is what he said...

Since my Mom's house is small, he says, it is difficult to get things right. He says that he himself lives in a similar house and he too has similar issues with his own system.

According to him, this is the smallest blower that can be had in a modern furnace. He says that with such a small house, with limited places to put returns, you will inevitably have a breeze effect when the furnace is on.

Also, since there are only two returns, the air supply to the bedrooms will never truly warm the rooms to the extent that the living room's supply. He says that his own bedrooms are on average 10 degrees colder than the rest of the house.

He says that stratification is the result of lack of insulation below the floor, and that when we get insulation there, things will not swing so much from ceiling to floor.

When pressed for creative solutions, he mentioned that perhaps changing the blower speed (slower) might help. He put the blower on medium speed and said that further balancing the registers might help.

I guess my Mom will live with it and see what happens.

Thanks to REP for your suggestions...and to Dandyme for sticking up for me.

It's not over, but I don't see there's anything else to do at this point.

-HiPresto.

What IS below the floor? Crawlspace?

[Mr Bill]

Sounds a bit like a lack of return. 2-24X8's aren't much return. Returns can probably be added to the bedrooms.

I agree! he should have someone pull the blower door off, just to see if the airflow increases any.