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Thread: Daiken inverter system vs trane/American standard variable speed compressor systems?

  1. #1
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    Daiken inverter system vs trane/American standard variable speed compressor systems?

    Hi everyone!
    Need some advice.what’s your experience with trane and American standard variable speed Heat pumps (XV systems). A contractor told me AS/Trane has coil problems and he’s had to change the coils out in 18 or more 2YO units costing customer 800 in labor.
    He’s recommending a daiken FIT “inverter”system.
    Are the inverter systems better than the Trane/AS systems?

    Are inverter systems reliable?

    Thanks in advance


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  2. #2
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    I think,.... someone here said Trane has a partnership with a compressor manufacturer to make their invertors, ( not saying that’s a bad thing ) whereas Daikin has there own patents and developed there own design and manufacturers them.

    For sure a better manufacturer warranty with the Daikin Fit, once registered to original residential owner. Those Fit are horizontal mount and have a smaller footprint than many conventional vertical models, you can also position them virtually next to a wall.

    What models indoor and outdoors are you comparing of each brand?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kvfr800 View Post
    Hi everyone!
    Need some advice.what’s your experience with trane and American standard variable speed Heat pumps (XV systems). A contractor told me AS/Trane has coil problems and he’s had to change the coils out in 18 or more 2YO units costing customer 800 in labor.
    He’s recommending a daiken FIT “inverter”system.
    Are the inverter systems better than the Trane/AS systems?

    Are inverter systems reliable?

    Thanks in advance


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I can't really speak to the Daikin system. I am a Trane dealer and I would love to know what some of these dealers are doing with their coils. I think I have replaced maybe 6 since Trane went to their aluminum coils. I have had Trane inverter systems out 5 years with no major issues unless you call a bad CDA replaced under warranty an issue, it is just an interface to see what the outside unit is doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BNME8EZ View Post
    I can't really speak to the Daikin system. I am a Trane dealer and I would love to know what some of these dealers are doing with their coils. I think I have replaced maybe 6 since Trane went to their aluminum coils. I have had Trane inverter systems out 5 years with no major issues unless you call a bad CDA replaced under warranty an issue, it is just an interface to see what the outside unit is doing.
    What model numbers are trane inverter systems ?


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    What models indoor and outdoors are you comparing of each brand?[/QUOTE]

    He came today, I’ll have a quote tomorrow. But a 2.5 or 3 ton daikin fit vs a American standard /trane xv18i or xv20i


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    From what I’ve seen I would never trust the quality of daikin over the quality of trane. I can tell by working on both extensively that daikin is junkier and they are either owned by or in partnership with goodman so that should definitely tell you something.

    My company was contracted by a cell service provider to install over 200 mini split systems. They demanded daikin because of the savings over Mitsubishi now the coils on the daikins are CONSTANTLY failing.

    Any brand is going to have problems but I think trane has a better reputation overall.
    "I think Quantum tunneling would work great... "

    "Call a technician for God's sake. Or we'll see you on the news or the Dark Side of the Moon."

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  9. #7
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    Daiken inverter system vs trane/American standard variable speed compressor systems?

    What’s got you determined to go fancy.

    I’ve seen a lot of daikin failures, but also despise Tam 9s. Why don’t you just get a standard Trane system and save the money.

    Or if you do go fancy definitely buy the trane extended warranty that covers parts and labor for 10 years. That can really come in handy!
    "I think Quantum tunneling would work great... "

    "Call a technician for God's sake. Or we'll see you on the news or the Dark Side of the Moon."

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kvfr800 View Post
    What model numbers are trane inverter systems ?


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    What I have installed are the 4TWV0036 on either TAM9 or TUHM with the proper coil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2kvfr800 View Post
    What models indoor and outdoors are you comparing of each brand?
    He came today, I’ll have a quote tomorrow. But a 2.5 or 3 ton daikin fit vs a American standard /trane xv18i or xv20i


    The Trane you reference is a conventional vertical discharge unit, comes in even size, from what the brochure says such as 2,3,4,5 tons. The Daikin Fit is a horizontal side discharge, comes in .5 increments. Such as 1.5 ton, 2 ton 2.5 ton etc.

    Daikin and Amana both offer a conventional inverter vertical discharge unit similar to Trane/American Standard configuration. Any reason the Daikin Contractor not offer that style also?

    Both companies offer extended labor warranties if that interest you. The Trane I believe comes as either a 5 or 10 years, backed by a 3rd party company I believe. The Daikin extended labor warranties are either 6 or 12 years and are backed by Daikin themselves. Trane does make a horizontal discharge inverter unit, at a tad higher efficiency ( once matched AHRI to a indoor section ) that can reach up to 19+ SEER believe it’s the XV19

    Federal Tax Credits https://www.energystar.gov/about/fed...ty_tax_credits

    Rebates from your state or local utility company may apply.

    Possible source for rebates ( money in your packet ) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...iQc0GVu13UMfK_

    Make sure to register your system of choice as manufacturers warranty decreases if never registered. Quebec or California do not require registration to receive the manufacturers maximum warranty.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; Yesterday at 07:43 PM.

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    Daiken inverter system vs trane/American standard variable speed compressor systems?

    [QUOTE=Bazooka Joey;26009393]He came today, I’ll have a quote tomorrow. But a 2.5 or 3 ton daikin fit vs a American standard /trane xv18i or xv20i


    The Trane you reference is a conventional vertical discharge unit, comes in even size, from what the brochure says such as 2,3,4,5 tons. The Daikin Fit is a horizontal side discharge, comes in .5 increments. Such as 1.5 ton, 2 ton 2.5 ton etc.

    Daikin and Amana both offer a conventional inverter vertical discharge unit similar to Trane/American Standard configuration. Any reason the Daikin Contractor not offer that style also?

    He is going to also quote me a American Standard system. The Daikin Fit system is a 17 SEER and does not qualify for Fed or local rebates.

    I plan on purchasing the extended warranty to include labor. The cost of the labor extended warranty is about equal to the cost of the labor charges for one warranty replacement service call. ~$800

    My current system is a Trane Xl14i w/air handler in the attic aprox 15-16yo unit.

    I just want to figure out what the best balance is between system cost -Operational cost and reliability.
    I will have an saltwater aquarium (which are temperature sensitive) in my home so long term down time especially summer ac outages
    Could be devastating.

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  13. #11
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    [QUOTE=2kvfr800;26009403]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    He came today, I’ll have a quote tomorrow. But a 2.5 or 3 ton daikin fit vs a American standard /trane xv18i or xv20i


    The Trane you reference is a conventional vertical discharge unit, comes in even size, from what the brochure says such as 2,3,4,5 tons. The Daikin Fit is a horizontal side discharge, comes in .5 increments. Such as 1.5 ton, 2 ton 2.5 ton etc.

    Daikin and Amana both offer a conventional inverter vertical discharge unit similar to Trane/American Standard configuration. Any reason the Daikin Contractor not offer that style also?

    He is going to also quote me a American Standard system. The Daikin Fit system is a 17 SEER and does not qualify for Fed or local rebates.

    I plan on purchasing the extended warranty to include labor. The cost of the labor extended warranty is about equal to the cost of the labor charges for one service call. ~$800


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    I’d be surprised at 17 SEER ( AHRI certificate ) your state would not give rebates, where did you get that info from? as typically for split system Ducted Heat Pumps the minimum SEER threshold is 15 or 16 in many states, certainly your state may require a minimum HSPF also. What is your state/local utility company information. Do you have the info package to post, I’d be curious to see what it says about your minimum thresholds are. Worst case what state do you live in and what’s your local utility company name? May be able to find it. Would prefer you do the homework thou...

    The Federal Tex Credit ( given you ) says 15 SEER is the minimum threshold for split system Heat Pumps, ( you got that beat ) plus a minimum HSPF and EER. The AHRI number will give you all those info. The Fit says it can reach “up to 18 SEER “ what is the AHRI number that you where given to say your system is 17 SEER? What is the EER and HSPF, as you know you can not go buy the rating of the outdoor unit only. It’s a combo package of outdoor to indoor selection that gives you those numbers. Nothing less.

    Maybe consider a less complicated system also, a less bells and whistle lower tier SEER, such as a two stage. Or a 16 SEER single stage if your worried about down time. Thinking less parts to fail, and many of those parts are stocked on a truck, as emergency while Tech. Is getting warrantied item if parts are still under warranty period, keeping down time to a minimum. Those complicated units, many have specialized parts that may need to be shipped overnight or what not if the distributor does not have, and down time may be longer?

    Hopefully whatever model of inverter you go with, the Contractor has extra training on that model, as it’s not like they are installing and commissioning a bare bone 13/14 SEER system.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; Yesterday at 08:52 PM.

  14. #12
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    The Trane inverters are by Danfoss. Daikin uses a "swing" compressor which is a variation of a rotary.

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  16. #13
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    [QUOTE=Bazooka Joey;26009409]
    Quote Originally Posted by 2kvfr800 View Post

    I’d be surprised at 17 SEER ( AHRI certificate ) your state would not give rebates, where did you get that info from? as typically for split system Ducted Heat Pumps the minimum SEER threshold is 15 or 16 in many states, certainly your state may require a minimum HSPF also. What is your state/local utility company information. Do you have the info package to post, I’d be curious to see what it says about your minimum thresholds are. Worst case what state do you live in and what’s your local utility company name? May be able to find it. Would prefer you do the homework thou...

    The Federal Tex Credit ( given you ) says 15 SEER is the minimum threshold for split system Heat Pumps, ( you got that beat ) plus a minimum HSPF and EER. The AHRI number will give you all those info. The Fit says it can reach “up to 18 SEER “ what is the AHRI number that you where given to say your system is 17 SEER? What is the EER and HSPF, as you know you can not go buy the rating of the outdoor unit only. It’s a combo package of outdoor to indoor selection that gives you those numbers. Nothing less.

    Maybe consider a less complicated system also, a less bells and whistle lower tier SEER, such as a two stage. Or a 16 SEER single stage if your worried about down time. Thinking less parts to fail, and many of those parts are stocked on a truck, as emergency while Tech. Is getting warrantied item if parts are still under warranty period, keeping down time to a minimum. Those complicated units, many have specialized parts that may need to be shipped overnight or what not if the distributor does not have, and down time may be longer?

    Hopefully whatever model of inverter you go with, the Contractor has extra training on that model, as it’s not like they are installing and commissioning a bare bone 13/14 SEER system.
    Well I have dominion energy and I’m in costal South Carolina. (North Charleston)

    Anyone know at why temp the daikin fit/trane/American standard units switch over to heat strips?
    In January our coldest month the average nighttime temp is in the mid 30’s
    So maybe a dual fuel system ? Would be the most efficient for our area?
    This image is form the daikin comfort website.


    As far as the less fancy models, I would love the cost and I’m sure they would save money over my dinosaur, inverter models should save more $$ in the long run right?


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  17. #14
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    [QUOTE=2kvfr800;26009507]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post

    Well I have dominion energy and I’m in costal South Carolina. (North Charleston)

    Anyone know at why temp the daikin fit/trane/American standard units switch over to heat strips?
    In January our coldest month the average nighttime temp is in the mid 30’s
    So maybe a dual fuel system ? Would be the most efficient for our area?
    This image is form the daikin comfort website.


    As far as the less fancy models, I would love the cost and I’m sure they would save money over my dinosaur, inverter models should save more $$ in the long run right?


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    Look closely at this one, 2nd page says 1/21 so thinking it’s for this calendar year, South Carolina, Dominion Electric. Rebates amount and SEER, EER, HSPF and for sure need the AHRI number to prove those numbers...

    Download the new Equipment Application.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...aw-iKtmjHGehgS

    Doubt you will see major savings over a simple single stage or two stage 16+ SEER over the the 17+ Inverter, certainly some savings, taking into consideration the initial upfront cost difference and also taking in any out of pockets future cost due to downtime, for repairs. Yea, why not figure in repair cost as a deduction to your savings? As chances your system will fail sooner than a non complicated system, the odds are in the simpler system install just due to less parts in system to fail, and those specialized parts once parts warranty expire can be a killer. Of course others here will say, inverters are more about comfort...so you can run with all this info..and decide.

    IMO, I’d lean more on a simple 80% furnace or a 92%+ condensing furnace and a basic 15+SEER Heat Pump Hybrid type system.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; Yesterday at 11:41 PM.

  18. #15
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    [QUOTE=2kvfr800;26009507]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post

    Well I have dominion energy and I’m in costal South Carolina. (North Charleston)

    Anyone know at why temp the daikin fit/trane/American standard units switch over to heat strips?
    In January our coldest month the average nighttime temp is in the mid 30’s
    So maybe a dual fuel system ? Would be the most efficient for our area?
    This image is form the daikin comfort website.


    As far as the less fancy models, I would love the cost and I’m sure they would save money over my dinosaur, inverter models should save more $$ in the long run right?


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    I can't talk to the Daikin but the Trane VS heat pump should never need the back up at 30 degrees especially since your cooling load should be higher than heating. The Trane unit can ramp up to 140% of normal RPM to give full capacity down to 5 degrees.

  19. #16
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    [QUOTE=Bazooka Joey;26009409]
    Quote Originally Posted by 2kvfr800 View Post

    I’d be curious to see what it says about your minimum thresholds are.
    What do you mean by min threshold?

    What should a proper estimate look like? Do I need testing /measurements done? Most have just looked at the existing system and given a price.. on a replacement of the same size unit.

    This is a example of what I have received.

    Estimate

    Replace HVAC unit ​​$
    o FIT outdoor and air handler – 2.5 ton
    o Thermostat – Daikin One + wifi
    o Pan and float switches
    o Ducting adaptations
    o Pad

    Replace HVAC unit with Zoning FROG​$
    o FIT outdoor and air handler – 2.5 ton
    o Thermostat – Daikin One + wifi
    o Pan and float switches
    o Ducting adaptations
    1st year maintenance agreement​$150
    Increase airflow to front bed – supply and jumper/return​$400​

    Daikin Warranty: 12 years parts and 1 year labor per mfg terms
    ​12 year labor non-transferrable warranty ​$
    Terms: Due upon receipt. Price represents 3% cash or check discount.
    0%-36 month financing available on FIT systems.


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    Last edited by BaldLoonie; Today at 07:02 PM. Reason: REMOVED PRICING PER SITE POLICY

  20. #17
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    [QUOTE=2kvfr800;26009701]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post

    What do you mean by min threshold?

    What should a proper estimate look like? Do I need testing /measurements done? Most have just looked at the existing system and given a price.. on a replacement of the same size unit.

    This is a example of what I have received.

    Estimate

    Replace HVAC unit ​​$
    o FIT outdoor and air handler – 2.5 ton
    o Thermostat – Daikin One + wifi
    o Pan and float switches
    o Ducting adaptations
    o Pad

    Replace HVAC unit with Zoning FROG​$
    o FIT outdoor and air handler – 2.5 ton
    o Thermostat – Daikin One + wifi
    o Pan and float switches
    o Ducting adaptations
    1st year maintenance agreement​$150
    Increase airflow to front bed – supply and jumper/return​$400​

    Daikin Warranty: 12 years parts and 1 year labor per mfg terms
    ​12 year labor non-transferrable warranty ​$890
    Terms: Due upon receipt. Price represents 3% cash or check discount.
    0%-36 month financing available on FIT systems.


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    Minimum threshold means to get any rebates, ( which was given you did you call the number listed to see if what was sent doable for you ) means you have to meet a minimum SEER, EER, and HSPF and have a AHRI number. You can surpass the minimum threshold. Are they going to install matching AHRI systems wheither a Daikin or Trane/AS? The Daikin should be the same as Trane/AS in regards I believe it says somewhere it can run down to 5 degree without back up heat.

    They are vague with model numbers of the indoor and outdoor unit. A commissioning report should also be done. Static pressures, final field refrigerant charge, amprege draws of motor and compressor.
    Last edited by BaldLoonie; Today at 07:02 PM.

  21. #18
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    Here’s something guessing your not aware of,..the Daikin One Thermostat if you go that system...

    Warranty

    THE DAIKIN ONE+ SMART THERMOSTAT IS BACKED BY AN OUTSTANDING 12-YEAR1 LIMITED WARRANTY*
    *Complete warranty details available from your local dealer/contractor or at www.daikincomfort.com. To receive the 12-Year Limited Warranty, online registration must be completed within 60 days of installation. Online registration is not required in California or Quebec.

    1 12-Year Limited Warranty is available for owner-occupied residences only. For multi-family and/or commercial applications, the warranty period is 5 years.

    Seeing I did the homework for you and your Contractor what’s the story with rebates in your state? Was what was sent correct and applies to you, as you mentioned no rebates for a particular brand model..

    *The Contractor left out one very important feature in post #16 the Daikin Fit manufacturers warranty, if the compressor ever fails in the 1st 12 years of ownership ( to original registered owner ) you get a new outdoor unit, not a replacement compressor, like the majority of manufacturers.*

    Believe the indoor coil and outdoor coil has the 12 year warranty, along with the parts, whereas most others brands come with a 10 year coil and parts and warranty ( once registered to original owner )
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; Today at 07:11 PM.

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