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Thread: Anybody remember any controls made before the internet ?

  1. #1
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    Anybody remember any controls made before the internet ?

    The one I am interested in knowing SOA protocol details about is a Robertshaw SD31-2003

    Any other antiques here? <g>
    PHM
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    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

  2. #2
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    All sorts. DMS-350, old Honeywell, Tracer 100... lots.

    But, I had taken care of two of the oldest Circon systems dating from about 1991. It was named Solus. They had an initial partnership with GE for lighting relays. So, the sites had power monitoring, light relay control, card access, intrusion detection and HVAC controllers. A very full initial offering. Somehow they figured out how to tank that headstart, Distech picked up some free tech later in a returned bankruptcy deal and that vaulted them into a more modern position. So, somebody benefitted from it.

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    Staefa Controls
    MS2000 architecture. The main 'management' board had 2 LAN connectors and 4 DDC trunk connectors (RS-485 days). Rotary knobs and dip switches to configure the addresses, baud rate, etc. The 'management station' where graphics, scheduling & alarms got processed; even some 'upper' control logic (winter/summer mode, energy calcs.). Also home of the 'master clock'. 1995-2001 days for me. The programming at the mgt. controller was called "NCRS Programming" (block programming) The MS2000 board cost $4K. I you lost it you lost your job. I remember having one in my car - watched it like a hawk.
    The code was developed by the Germans. So 'Out' was 'Aus' and 'In' was 'Ein' (Achtung Baby!)

    DDC Controllers: NRK-16, NRUE, NRUF. The NRK-16 was a cool controller; had a LED display and neat little rocker switches (Swiss designed and maybe Swiss built)

    The DDC programming tool was called "SAPIM" - "Structure & Parameter Index Menu" or Steafa Plan Short (functional block code). SAPIM programming had an unique 'Page' structure: P0-1, P0-2...; P1-1, P1-2..., P2-1, P2-2.... The "P0" pages would contain the I/O, Alarm and clock blocks ('base' pages). The "P1" page might be the "Night Mode" logic and the "P2" the "Day Mode" logic. Then you defined the operating modes on how the pages would operate (boolean logic). Those were the days you would spend hours troubleshooting 'Data Adoption Errors'. You couldn't compile and download to the DDC controller until you had a successful data adoption (syntax stuff).
    Landis merged with Staefa and the rest is history.

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  5. #4
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    Yeah we called them Pneumatics!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tridiumtech View Post
    1995-2001 days for me..
    That's not pre-internet days. Remember banging away on a terminal in collage using gopher, ftp, irc round then. HTTP and Email was quite the PITA back then. Think AOL came out in the early 90s which kinda gave you a glimpse of the internet, least through their eyes. You got to go back to at least the early 80's to call it pre-internet imo.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

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    Kinda nuts thinking back of the green screen terminal and only having access to the 'internet' at a university vs now where we have it in our hands 24/7.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  8. #7
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    The portion of the plant that I maintain was built in 1986. All our HVAC is still operated by JCI DSC-8500 control platform using original JCI modems with phone lines back to the control house. Controls all the boilers, chillers, modulates steam/hot/chilled water valves, most of it all is pneumatic if running into the buildings and electrical if out in the support buildings. All the control processes still run through thousands of Foxboro logic cards. And all the door, staging, and feedback stuff is communicated via Opto22 Optomux boards with in and out cartridge relays, and a myriad of RS-232, RS-422, and RS-485 coms all over the damn place and finally all routing to 9pin serial converters to Windows 98 main frame. Majority of the PLCs here are original ABB PLC-5 stuff. Some newer yet still obsolete SLC-500 PLC stuff.

    There is plenty of pre-internet stuff still running out where I am at.

    Lucky that we hoarded the worlds supply of Johnson Control parts, Foxboro parts, Opto22 parts, and ABB PLC parts. Hundreds of spare components to keep this damn place running for another 30 years if needs be.

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    laughed at "Windows 98 main frame"
    Is that on a VM yet? What are the plans when that dies?

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by digo View Post
    laughed at "Windows 98 main frame"
    Is that on a VM yet? What are the plans when that dies?
    I dunno what their plans are. Things may be running on some virtual platform. All the main servers and racks are from Sun Microsystems, so that can give you an idea of age and the last major upgrade.

  11. #10
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    Thread Starter
    Subject: Robertshaw SD31-2003

    Let ask the question a little differently:

    Does anybody remember any controls made before computerized records keeping?

    That is: when files were sheets of paper kept in file cabinets.

    The Control I am interested in knowing about is a: Robertshaw SD31-2003

    It was made before computer-kept records - so I am looking for the paper-file-kept design details. Or really; anything at all about it. Because it pre-dates computers - no one seems to know anything about it.

    Well; except maybe you all. <g>
    PHM
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    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

  12. #11
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    Thinking finding a protocol doc for that guy is going to be a pretty tall order to fill.

    Might be easier to reverse engineer it if you have a working system to play with.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  13. #12
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    That's why I was asking the old fossils here. <g>

    The controls are simple:
    Two 10,000 ohm sensor inputs sensing temperatures.
    Cut-in when TD is 20.
    Cut-out when TD is 5
    Limit cut-out when TD is 180

    What I want to know is when does the control reset after a 180 limit cut-out ?

    The empirical answer seems to be: tomorrow. <g>. Or if external power to the control is removed and then re-established. But that certainly seems illogical to me for an operating control.

    Which is why I am curious about the original designer's intentions.


    PHM
    ----------



    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Thinking finding a protocol doc for that guy is going to be a pretty tall order to fill.

    Might be easier to reverse engineer it if you have a working system to play with.
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

  14. #13
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    If that's all you want to know, get a cheap resistor decade and just test it out a min. Hopefully you have a temp vs resistance chart for the sensors.

    https://www.tindie.com/products/gerr...9999r-1-500mw/

    Even 100k pot. Use the chart and a meter to dial up any temp you want.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  15. #14
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    Thread Starter
    Thanks - but I have no idea how to even begin to do that. <g>


    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    If that's all you want to know, get a cheap resistor decade and just test it out a min. Hopefully you have a temp vs resistance chart for the sensors.

    https://www.tindie.com/products/gerr...9999r-1-500mw/
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of Thinking

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    Thanks - but I have no idea how to even begin to do that. <g>
    180F = some resistance. Tie some variable resistance to the controller and dial up whatever situation you want to simulate.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  17. #16
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    I'm just going to expose my ignorance for the fun of it. There are some old controls, just for show, on the counter at my supplyhouse. You refreshed my memory. I was busy today and a regular came in and ordered a bunch of stuff. I get a call while I'm taking care of his order and he says he forgot something. He heads out to his van and comes back and installs some vacuum tubes on some archaic control that has been sitting on the counter. I just remembered this now. He said it's been bothering him for some time that the controller on the counter was missing vacuum tubes.
    I took over this store in May. F if I know....
    Officially, Down for the count

    YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET

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  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by slctech View Post
    Lucky that we hoarded the worlds supply of Johnson Control parts, Foxboro parts, Opto22 parts, and ABB PLC parts. Hundreds of spare components to keep this damn place running for another 30 years if needs be.
    Smart. Without replacements that's a house of cards looking for a reason to tumble.
    Propagating the formula. http://www.noagendashow.com/

  19. #18
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    Lol....I'll bet there is microfiche copy collecting dust in some dark basement....
    Quote Originally Posted by orion242 View Post
    Thinking finding a protocol doc for that guy is going to be a pretty tall order to fill.

    Might be easier to reverse engineer it if you have a working system to play with.
    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

  20. #19
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    Good luck with that PHM. I like Orion 248's idea with using a dial pot and
    spinning knob until you get the temp you want - there's your resistance.
    (maybe there's more to the tech challenge than it appears).

    In regards to 'pre-internet' - yeah, pre-1990's can be argued. In terms of before
    paper records - jezz, before 'Wordperfect' and the IBM 10MHz PC? , ha.
    If you were to draw a line between Internet & Pre-Internet for controls - a good
    one would be the day the DDC controller needed an IP address (ie, T-Box).

  21. #20
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    I've worked on plenty of the old Delta Controls sites from the late 80s early 90s that are still running on the old coax network. They all still work without issue, it's been really hard to convince a lot of customers to upgrade. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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