Got Knocked on my butt today. UPDATE: Non Contact Voltage Detector

[jbhenergy]

Before you do that, spend some time on mike Holt's electrical forums, and watching his YouTube videos.

Search his "grounding and bonding" videos first. He has one that's an hour or so long, showing his experiment with what you want to do.

That one was a good one. At times over my head but a good one. Been a few years since I have seen it probably should go watch it again.


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[71CHOPS]

That one was a good one. At times over my head but a good one. Been a few years since I have seen it probably should go watch it again.


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Yeah, I found Mike's forums and videos through this site. I started realizing how much I didnt know.

[Joab]

I have seen the phrase “neutral and ground are bonded at the main entrance (panel, meter, etc)”.

The neutral is tied into the grounding system ONCE it's called the system bonding jumper. The system bonding jumper allows current to return to the neutral from the grounding system if there is a fault and reference the entire system to ground via the grounding electrodes (ground rods, buried water pipes, etc...)

I have been on site at a house when the electrical inspector showed up. “FAILED: Continuity between neutral and ground”

Someone installed a dryer and didn’t remove the neutral/ground jumper when installing the cord.

Replaced the service entrance on my mom’s house, and got the same failure because I didn’t remove the bonding screw from the buss bar I used as neutral (could use either the left or right bar, just had to remove the bonding screw). Luckily I knew the inspector and he let me run out and remove it the next weekend.

The neutral is bonded ONCE and only ONCE. If you bond it again downstream, then there are multiple paths for the current to get to neutral. Current will be flowing on both the neutral wire, and the equipment grounding wire.

I just checked my house, and there is no continuity between neutral and ground, but there is a ground wire from the meter to the (ahem) ground, and there is continuity between it and the ground in the inside panel, but not to neutral. My neutral goes through the meter, to the transformer at the pole, and is attached to the ground at the pole.

It sounds like your service is installed wrong, or else you're just not seeing the connection. According to your description, the grounding electrode conductor, neutral conductor, and equipment grounding conductor should all be connected together in your meter socket. From that point on downstream, they need to remain seperate.

So.

Other than pictures, where can I read up on why multiple grounds are not feasible (I’m adding a 200a service to my garage and I have to have 2 8’ ground rods driven 4’ apart on a #6 wire, isnt that multiple grounds?) and as to why ground doesn’t dissipate the energy when it’s called a “safety circuit”?

Is your email in your profile? I'll send you some pdfs and video links when I've got a little time.

The official reason that you need grounding rods at every structure is... well, there really isn't one. Some say lighting, some say to keep the same reference.. the additional ground rods at additional structures really don't serve a purpose. But, as you pointed out, they are a code requirement. BUT, they only connect to the neutral ONCE, at the service. If your garage panel is sub fed from your house panel the ground rods will only connect to the equipment grounding conductors, and the neutral will remain isolated.

I’ve done some electrical work at a new prison facility. They had ground rods driven all around the building, all bonded together, and ground wires run into various panels and ground busses in the building.

Yeah... there are a few circumstances were this is legitimate, but also a ton of engineers who are copying and pasting specs from the eighties, and have no idea how this works.

A ground is supposed to take any exposed energized metal to earth to protect anyone that may touch it in the event of a short circuit. I get that the earth around the ground could become energized and... well a lot of things could happen.

Not really, it's supposed to make sure that metal objects likely to become energized, do not become energized, by providing a low impedance path to clear the fault.

But what I don’t understand is if there is no feasible way to bring a ground to a piece of equipment (electrical before the 50’s or 60’s when grounds weren’t required), then other than a complete overhaul of an electrical system, how do we ground a piece of equipment so IF someone was to come service/use/inspect/sit upon it and it had a current leakage from rubbed through insulation or even a direct short they don’t get hurt?

No, not the copper line set (as in an ac unit), what if it was a chiller and everything was plastic piping to inside?

Or an air compressor hooked to plastic piping (taking away the water as a circuit)?

See what I’m sayin?

Yes, I get it. You just need to change the way you think about "ground" Mike Holt has proposed multiple times that the term "grounding" be removed from the code and the term "bonding" be used instead. Bond, bond, bond, but forget about the earth, it's just a reference for the transformer.

If you run into this situation, call an electrician, seriously. It gets a little complex, but code makes some exceptions for these situations. Such as, you can tie into any point on the grounding electrode system (ground rods and the wires going to them), you can run a ground separately from the wires supplying power to the panel, or to the ground in another circuit, etc.. You get the idea, pretty well to anything that is the correct size and BONDED to rest of the system.

What we never, ever want is an isolated grounding system. This has caused many, many electrocutions.

[stumpdigger]

Drive a copper ground rod in the ground, run a wire from the cabinet to the rod to ground the unit.

If you use the copper lines, you may set up a situation that corrodes the copper.

Or of the building ground is nearby, run a wire over to it like the telephone/cable company does.


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A ground rod will work, you dont find them much around Chicago. My old house still has original 2-wire flexible, I've used them for 2-wire circuits and cable TV, they really help when you lose the Nuetral and every 120 Vac circuit starts backfeeding through other circuits and appliances.

[Joab]

Is not the electric panel grounded to the plumbing line, a copper line buried in the ground?

A metal water pipe over ten feet long, buried in the earth is by definition a grounding electrode. And, yes, it must be bonded with the rest of the grounding electrode system.

[71CHOPS]

Is not the electric panel grounded to the plumbing line, a copper line buried in the ground?

that isn't allowed anymore.

One thing I learned researching transformer theory is that all electricity will return to its source. No matter the size of the transformer....thousands of volts, or a tiny 24 volt transformer.

Interestingly enough this basic theory was part of Tesla's original research into global power supplies.

This is also why I really liked RLJN's post...he realizes that all power WILL return to its source...no matter what path it takes....it has no choice.

[stumpdigger]

I remember something about "the earth conditions"( dry,wet,sand,clay,rocky) being involved in this ground rod story.

I imagine that this ground rod topic is much more local than nationwide. My power panel is grounded to a ground rod.

[WT70]

that isn't allowed anymore.

One thing I learned researching transformer theory is that all electricity will return to its source. No matter the size of the transformer....thousands of volts, or a tiny 24 volt transformer.

Interestingly enough this basic theory was part of Tesla's original research into global power supplies.

This is also why I really liked RLJN's post...he realizes that all power WILL return to its source...no matter what path it takes....it has no choice.

This is something I realize.

But isn’t the earth part of what carries an unbalanced load back to source?

A 230v single phase feed from a transformer. One leg is pulling 75 amps, and one pulling 70 amps (more light on from one phase than the other or some 120v whatever).

Isn’t that 5 amps difference going to follow the neutral back to the transformer connections then to earth?


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[Joab]

Here ya go, another pretty picture.

[Joab]

This is something I realize.

But isn’t the earth part of what carries an unbalanced load back to source?

A 230v single phase feed from a transformer. One leg is pulling 75 amps, and one pulling 70 amps (more light on from one phase than the other or some 120v whatever).

Isn’t that 5 amps difference going to follow the neutral back to the transformer connections then to earth?


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To the transformer, not to earth. Why would the current flow to earth, what voltage would drive it?

[stumpdigger]

Here ya go, another pretty picture.

For my education; in the picture the nuetral from main panel and from the transformer show a connection (orange) to earth ground, just what/ how are these two grounds connected to if not earth, earth is enough of a ground to get you killed.

[stumpdigger]

that isn't allowed anymore.

One thing I learned researching transformer theory is that all electricity will return to its source. No matter the size of the transformer....thousands of volts, or a tiny 24 volt transformer.

Interestingly enough this basic theory was part of Tesla's original research into global power supplies.

This is also why I really liked RLJN's post...he realizes that all power WILL return to its source...no matter what path it takes....it has no choice.

if they are not grounding to a plumbing line, standard around here, what are they grounding too?

[kangaroogod]

The rod/s are primarily do dissipate lightning surges and to dissipate static on the line. They have nothing to do with clearing a fault.
Years ago we use to drive ground rods for generators. What you find is that when lightning strikes the ground, electricity will go up the rod energizing the metal cabinet and send viltage through the entire home and grounded parts and ultimately down the rods for the home. This is the reason why rods should not be used elsewhere.

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[stumpdigger]

I feel the need to confess a story of stupid. Once I condemned a condenser fan for giving me a shock while I was hosing out the condenser coil. Ooops, long time ago, first year alone in the field.

[Joab]

For my education; in the picture the nuetral from main panel and from the transformer show a connection (orange) to earth ground, just what/ how are these two grounds connected to if not earth, earth is enough of a ground to get you killed.

The utility always takes the neutral point of a transformer to ground. Then the neutral is taken to ground one more time at the service. For the purposes of this discussion I've been sticking with everything from the service on. Utilities use a whole different thought process, including using the earth as a conductor..

From the meter to the transformer is really utility property, and they have their own rules. The transformer bond is typical of utility bonding, but not really pertinent to this discussion.

[WT70]

The utility always takes the neutral point of a transformer to ground. Then the neutral is taken to ground one more time at the service. For the purposes of this discussion I've been sticking with everything from the service on. Utilities use a whole different thought process, including using the earth as a conductor..

From the meter to the transformer is really utility property, and they have their own rules. The transformer bond is typical of utility bonding, but not really pertinent to this discussion.

The question I originally posted after the OP made his post has NOT inherently been answered. We just keep getting “this is code/that’s not right”.

SO.

1. Say this building was build in the 20’s, and AC added in the 60’s. There is no ground to bring to the piece of equipment, and no ground to go back to. How to make this piece of equipment safe for anyone that mayhaps come by and not know one of the windings in the motor is bleeding off to “ground” but has no where to go and gets their “butt knocked on the ground” when they lean against it to smoke their cigarette?

Cause code or not, this crap does happen. Eg, the OP’s issue. We can argue “code” all day long, but we still haven’t solved the main issue of SAFETY.


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[Joab]

The question I originally posted after the OP made his post has NOT inherently been answered. We just keep getting “this is code/that’s not right”.

SO.

1. Say this building was build in the 20’s, and AC added in the 60’s. There is no ground to bring to the piece of equipment, and no ground to go back to. How to make this piece of equipment safe for anyone that mayhaps come by and not know one of the windings in the motor is bleeding off to “ground” but has no where to go and gets their “butt knocked on the ground” when they lean against it to smoke their cigarette?

Cause code or not, this crap does happen. Eg, the OP’s issue. We can argue “code” all day long, but we still haven’t solved the main issue of SAFETY.


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Actually, there probably is a connection to a water pipe, something, even from the 30's.

The neutral should be grounded at the service, and the case of the equipment should be connected to the point where the neutral and ground connect. This is a safe installation.

If any of the above is missing, it needs corrected.

[stumpdigger]

The utility always takes the neutral point of a transformer to ground. Then the neutral is taken to ground one more time at the service. For the purposes of this discussion I've been sticking with everything from the service on. Utilities use a whole different thought process, including using the earth as a conductor..

From the meter to the transformer is really utility property, and they have their own rules. The transformer bond is typical of utility bonding, but not really pertinent to this discussion.

Not trying to be an ass, (don't need to try but), I don't care about utility end, wondering where/how they ground at panel end? thanx (especially if not using water lines anymore)

[R600a]

I just watched a couple of Mike Holt videos on YouTube as suggested. I learned a ton in 20 minutes.
Now I am wondering why we ground anything because it seems like if nothing was grounded then you couldn't get electrocuted but touching a conductor and ground at the same time.
Also I was supprised how damaging additional grounds can be in the event of lightning. He makes it all make so much sense.

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[WT70]

Also I was supprised how damaging additional grounds can be in the event of lightning. He makes it all make so much sense.

Sent from the Okie state usin Tapatalk

I get this as not many people realize cloud to ground lightening is actually ground to cloud.


Also. TODAY, code is code and it makes sense.


BUT. Still missing the answer that apparently no one knows but won’t say “I dunno”.

IF this equipment is in an old building, how do we make it safe if there is no ground/neutral?

I’m going to keep asking until I get an answer or banned from Tapatalk

I don’t want my kids running around that unit. Or my dog. God forbid he decided to pee in it and get killed. Or kid gets drain bammaged from catching his balance by grabbing ahold of it. But how am I supposed to know that unit sitting bedside a sidewalk is properly wired or grounded/neutraled/whatever you wanna call it at this point? But the service tech that worked in it left it like that knowing it was wrong.

How we make er safe boys/girls?

So he thinks the condenser motor is bad and replaces it, and maybe that was the problem. Ahhhh. No more voltage to the cabinet. 6 months from now a comp lead rubs through. What happens then? Newbie that don’t know any better sticks his nutdriver to it and no more newbie.

Or do we just care about how it’s built as of today and screw the old stuff?


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