911 - Old Metasys OWS server is dead

[bigguy158]

I saw a DSC or two around 2014. And before that I was called out to a hospital on an OT service call that had something that I later learned talked... S2... ? Is that a thing? I was relatively new to Johnson, and automation, so I just tapped out and had the other guy take it the next day...
I not only know this stuff will still be around, I am counting on it. Everyone can work on the new stuff... and that is crucial. But the guys that can make heads or tails of the old stuff make good good money. That and dealing with odd mechnical problems make a good guy indespensible.
I take careful notes and have a good set of cheat sheets to help me remember what the heck I did last time when I see it again 8 mos from now.

Yes S2 was a thing.

I remember being at a college in town and seeing a 1” yellow SO type cord with like 4 or 6 conductors in it. I asked a old JCI guy what it was and he said back in the old days the original JC/80 would read a temp from a building and then set the analog output and then move on and read a temp from a different building. I’m assuming they did some sort of mechanical switching to read different temps.

That college has probably had 5 different generations of Johnson controls devices in it.


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[JCIman]

I saw a DSC or two around 2014. And before that I was called out to a hospital on an OT service call that had something that I later learned talked... S2... ? Is that a thing? I was relatively new to Johnson, and automation, so I just tapped out and had the other guy take it the next day...
I not only know this stuff will still be around, I am counting on it. Everyone can work on the new stuff... and that is crucial. But the guys that can make heads or tails of the old stuff make good good money. That and dealing with odd mechnical problems make a good guy indespensible.
I take careful notes and have a good set of cheat sheets to help me remember what the heck I did last time when I see it again 8 mos from now.

The DSC communicated on an S2 trunk. The NAE doesn’t speak s2 so they couldn’t be migrated over to extended architecture. The DSC programs in CAL 1, which is a scripting language. They were decent controllers for their time.

[VAEngineer]

Yup. If the picture posts properly, you can see the CoAx cable BNC connectors on top of the NCM. It runs to a contemporary Controls Arcnet to Ethernet router that is branded for Johnson. It comes with only the hardware and needs to have software developed for it to talk to anything... so not an off the shelf thing for most applications.

My hospital if full of this stuff. A current project to replace an old air handler has an NCM in it that controls some VAV's over the N2 bus in our hospital isolation rooms (for COVID or TB patients). Part of the contract is to integrate the NCM in that building to the new system. GC hired the local Johnson Branch, so I figured no problem, Johnson installed and maintained the NCM network. It has been almost 2 years and I have yet to get a submittal on what solution they are going to use to integrate the NCM into their new NAE55. The JCI tech had no idea what he was looking at it, I had to show him the N1 Arcnet coax trunk, he had never seen or heard of it. I just hope the bosses come up with a couple million to replace all this stuff, we have had the metasys PC die just like this, but it was a few years ago and JCI was able to replace it, but who kows if they could today. Even this very MCM that is supposed to be integrated had to be replaced recently and we had to get it used (I think it was between $8k and 10k for the main module and power supply), and then pay JCI more money to install and program it.

[orion242]

I think it was between $8k and 10k for the main module and power supply

Guess we won't be tossing those in the can anymore...

[numbawunfela]

Even this very MCM that is supposed to be integrated had to be replaced recently and we had to get it used (I think it was between $8k and 10k for the main module and power supply), and then pay JCI more money to install and program it.

No pricing on the open forum... but lets just say a quick Google search will turn up these devices anywhere from 1/40th of that on fleabay to 1/8th where they are refurbished. Of course the local johnson branch probably has a pile of these sitting on a shelf somewhere... hows that for a markup... Not to be missed is that the contractor must warranty the thing and there is a fair amount of risk in any of these.
The real issue is not only that the devices are not getting younger, but the people who can deal with these are literally dieing off. Replacing these with JACEs gets rid of the metasys OWS, and the NCMs, the 2 most likely to fail parts of this whole equation. It also puts you in a good spot to convert the field devices later, as the JACE can talk to these too.
And you do not need JCI to do it.

[VAEngineer]

No pricing on the open forum... but lets just say a quick Google search will turn up these devices anywhere from 1/40th of that on fleabay to 1/8th where they are refurbished. Of course the local johnson branch probably has a pile of these sitting on a shelf somewhere... hows that for a markup... Not to be missed is that the contractor must warranty the thing and there is a fair amount of risk in any of these.
The real issue is not only that the devices are not getting younger, but the people who can deal with these are literally dieing off. Replacing these with JACEs gets rid of the metasys OWS, and the NCMs, the 2 most likely to fail parts of this whole equation. It also puts you in a good spot to convert the field devices later, as the JACE can talk to these too.
And you do not need JCI to do it.

I work for the federal government, there is no such thing as going to ebay and buying anything. It has to be purchased through a buyer typically listed on GSA or some other listing of companies the Federal government is "allowed" to buy them from. I would guess the seller also had to provide some sort of warranty on used parts which for sure jack up the prices considerably.

[numbawunfela]

I work for the federal government....

Oh yeah, I forgot.

[VAEngineer]

No pricing on the open forum... but lets just say a quick Google search will turn up these devices anywhere from 1/40th of that on fleabay to 1/8th where they are refurbished. Of course the local johnson branch probably has a pile of these sitting on a shelf somewhere... hows that for a markup... Not to be missed is that the contractor must warranty the thing and there is a fair amount of risk in any of these.
The real issue is not only that the devices are not getting younger, but the people who can deal with these are literally dieing off. Replacing these with JACEs gets rid of the metasys OWS, and the NCMs, the 2 most likely to fail parts of this whole equation. It also puts you in a good spot to convert the field devices later, as the JACE can talk to these too.
And you do not need JCI to do it.

I just looked on Ebay. The units on there when I search for NCM300 do not look like the ones we have installed, they look much smaller and ours have Pneumatic valves on them (installed in certain positions, not all). I even see these have ethernet (or at least an RJ45 jack) where as ours have coax cable connections.

[VAEngineer]

I just looked on Ebay. The units on there when I search for NCM300 do not look like the ones we have installed, they look much smaller and ours have Pneumatic valves on them (installed in certain positions, not all). I even see these have ethernet (or at least an RJ45 jack) where as ours have coax cable connections.

Nevermind, I put "NCM 300" into ebay, but in reality it is a NCM 200. You are right 1/10 the price. I went and checked the qoute and the numbers our HVAC supervisor gave me are correct, almost 5 figures for the controller and power supply.

[orion242]

You are right 1/10 the price.

Lol. Well back to the bin they go then.

[numbawunfela]

NCM200... Geez. You are in a hard spot with that one. The cost to fly a guy from Timbuktu to install it is the remainder... I kinda like their price now.

[numbawunfela]

Lol. Well back to the bin they go then.

Haha! Or you can mail them to me. I will pay shipping. I will need a few of these. They wanna change IP addresses and we have had at least 2 not come back after a power cycle.
So an IP change is several grand in labor.... Good thing they saved a nickel putting off the replacement a few years. it is the gift that keeps giving

[JCIman]

NCM200... Geez. You are in a hard spot with that one. The cost to fly a guy from Timbuktu to install it is the remainder... I kinda like their price now.

The Database is the same, so an NCM350 would be a drop in replacement configuration wise. You would just have to horse around with the mounting and cabling a little since the foot prints are different.
The NCM 350's are allot better than the 200's. Real controllers are made of metal
Stay away from the 450's they are basically an NAE45 that is running an NCM emulation on top of the Windows CE OS. Due to the emulation black magic, there are network timing issues that can be a real pain to solve on large sites.
I remember figuring that out years ago on a site of 250 of them and came up with a redneck fix...Had to go to each one of them and install a 10MB hub to force it to talk 10MB. It would not function correctly on a 100MB network (even though it's supposed to), and it didn't like a managed switch to try to force it to talk 10MB. They preferred hubs :-)
I never saw that issue with an NCM350

[JCIman]

Haha! Or you can mail them to me. I will pay shipping. I will need a few of these. They wanna change IP addresses and we have had at least 2 not come back after a power cycle.
So an IP change is several grand in labor.... Good thing they saved a nickel putting off the replacement a few years. it is the gift that keeps giving

I have a picture somewhere of a branch that was using one to block up a trailer because the jack was too short!

[numbawunfela]

I remember figuring that out years ago on a site of 250 of them and came up with a redneck fix...Had to go to each one of them and install a 10MB hub to force it to talk 10MB. It would not function correctly on a 100MB network (even though it's supposed to), and it didn't like a managed switch to try to force it to talk 10MB. They preferred hubs :-)
I never saw that issue with an NCM350

I love that! I worked with a few of those, and flashed one up to be an NAE45. fun how it is mysteriously impossible to flash one back to an NCM...

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Do actually fly that spinnaker or do you just like the colors?

PHM
-------

Are you talking about those old Dell GX 280, circa 2006? Infamous for death by bulging capacitors?

[digo]

Funny, I probably haven't been sailing since I took this picture. One of my former coworkers used to be part of a sailboat club where you could take out their little sailboats for a spin in the bay.

I took this pic back in 2008 on a Samsung SGH-A737 phone that had a whopping 1.3 megapixel camera. This is from an event in San Diego called the "beer can race."
The image stuck and became my avatar here and a few other places.

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[orion242]

So an IP change is several grand in labor....

I just shake my head at these folks. Let me guess, there is no capitol plan to actually replace it at some point. They just continue to deal with downtime and ridiculous service costs (rightfully so if this is what's involved) vs some point, probably not too far off, the last chair is gone when the music stops. This isn't the elementary school, its not the small church down the road...no its what they usually consider 'critical infrastructure'. Beside myself, yet not really surprised. Walked through more than one like this. I try to avoid these types of folks like the plague given the luxury.

[orion242]

I have a picture somewhere of a branch that was using one to block up a trailer because the jack was too short!

LMAO!!! Please share with the group.

[orion242]

This is from an event in San Diego called the "beer can race."

Does the leader pick the path to the finish line leaving a trail of empty's the rest need to follow??