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  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2018
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    Thread Starter
    BMS is not tied to the life cycle of buildings!!
    "Yet another" method will be the standard in new construction in 2-3 years, and bacnet will slowly decline.
    If it is a new construction it makes sense (saves $ and time). You power as many as possible devices via PoE. Commercial LED light fixtures 2ft x 4ft (90W supported), access control, video, motion sensors, VAV controllers, wireless AP. You run the comm to delivery lockers, vending machines, ice machines, small IoT devices like coffee makers, refrigerators. The savings is that you don't need to run high voltage wire. In a lot of cases you don't need to run the CaT in conduit, just the plenum rated cable in a cable tray. You run Cat cable for pretty much everything and where needed high voltage. You power from the switches, and at the same time you have the comm bus ready. You don't need to run separate cable to interface with those devices. Only smoke/fire and electrical will stay the old way because of the fire codes. The number of switch ports with increase 10x fold. If you have the infrastructure this way it is logical to integrate everything in one system without running separate bus. This will most likely be hybrid system with local and cloud interface. The new switches can run third party apps, and this will be your new local interface. And from the switch to the router to the cloud is your cloud solution. The days of JACE are gone. Compare the last JACE 8000 hardware specs with Raspberry Pi 4, and see the difference. The JACE is way under powered and overpriced anyway.
    For old building where retrofit is being done - you have high-voltage going to your light fixtures and VAV boxes. Do only what you don't have. They are not going to adapt as quickly, but eventually the IP controllers will be way cheaper than the regular controllers from the main manufacturers. Think of it as Raspberry Pi 4 which cost $30. You install a small HAT and control the damper and the hot water valve. Add 2 temp sensors and the tubing for the CFMs to the HAT and you are done. You are not stuck with a manufacturer of controller or actuator. Install whatever is cheaper and works for you. You don't need to buy proprietary software to download the program to a VAV controller. Everything is free and you have the power to change it the way you like.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    152
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    Dude, you’re going to say Orion doesn’t know anything about cyber security, but then turn around claim Raspberry Pi’s are the solution to the BAS world. A Pi is the most dangerous thing you could ever put on your network. You just gave yourself away, apparently you don’t know much yourself.

  3. Likes MaxBurn, numbawunfela liked this post.
  4. #16
    Join Date
    May 2018
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    19
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by control$ View Post
    I think since I speak English, the whole world should just adopt it. Just make it the standard language.
    It ain't going to happen.
    Don't make comments like that when you have no idea what you are talking about! REST API is not a language, but a concept of communication.

  5. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    2,185
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    In a perfect utopia starting from scratch with present tech this stuff makes some sense. Expecting the construction and BMS industry to change overnight is the part that isn't going to happen. Just take a look at who purchases what on a construction job, propose some changes and watch the fallout. First couple of jobs I saw where they moved lighting under controls even with the customer pushing from the top down was a real eye opener. Simply saying the life cycle of building controls isn't tied to the building itself denies a lot of budgeting realities on how money is spent in the building.

    The Pi costs $30, and that's fine if you want to ignore everything around that board our BMS CPU boards probably cost less than $5. I'm sure everyone here is aware of the CC BASpi now and can handle a calculator to add the parts up that would create a VAV controller. I'd be surprised if that totaled less than most mainline VAV controllers we have today. Then expecting that to have a trouble free experience for 20 years? Not happening. I've got a Alarm Decoder AD2PI that I've had for about five years now and it's been far from a trouble free experience even when expectations are low and all you want is to keep the security updates done. But when you look at the underlying honeywell vista security system which is built on BMS KISS principals it's reliability and security with zero updates has been flawless over four times the time.

  6. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    655
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixithvac View Post
    You have Belimo EV, and still wanna use MSTP??
    I'll use anything that will work. What exactly is the problem with Belimo EV and MS/TP? Works great.
    Controls, the cause of... and solution to... all your HVAC problems.

  7. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    655
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixithvac View Post
    Don't make comments like that when you have no idea what you are talking about! REST API is not a language, but a concept of communication.
    I think I do. CAT 6 is not an economical answer today for or tomorrow. It's for da few-chaa. And by then another widget will replace it.
    Controls, the cause of... and solution to... all your HVAC problems.

  8. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Amarillo by mornin'
    Posts
    1,034
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixithvac View Post
    Orion has no idea about cyber security, and says he can offer more secure solution! His only solution is the JACE!!
    Name:  giphy.gif
Views: 110
Size:  1.13 MB
    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer
    Albert Einstein

  9. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    35
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    Why are you looking for a Rest API capable controllers ? What problem are you trying to solve ?

  10. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kenilworth NJ
    Posts
    1,906
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixithvac View Post
    All apps on your phone use REST APIs. Facebook, twitter, instagram, google suite, banking apps - everything is that way.
    Fixithvac, I actually wanted to see what would come of this. I know nothing about APIs, but I also knew nothing about bulldozers the first time I found the keys under the seat on a day when nobody was around and drove one.
    But you kinda blew any chances on getting a response that is constructive with your tone. Just chill a little. Saying REST is not cool is not saying you are not cool.
    Maybe you can take a second to mend some bridges and start over here - and the rest of us may learn something from the interaction.
    Just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  11. #23
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    2,185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProductManagerR View Post
    Why are you looking for a Rest API capable controllers ? What problem are you trying to solve ?
    I think he is trying to replace BACnet to make it easier for some of these analytics services to gather data and/or replace the front end we use.

  12. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wi
    Posts
    101
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    Don't worry guys BACnet/SC will solve all these issues... After all, we don't want to use API's. It's not like they use API's for super complex things like rockets...

    https://github.com/r-spacex/SpaceX-API

    Oh wait but surely super secure things like banking don't use apis???

    https://blog.strands.com/open-banking-apis

    Oh damn...

    Well I mean things like healthcare that are super duper important don't use apis...

    https://www.hl7.org/fhir/http.html

    Damn...

    What would I know though, I've only designed and engineered some of the most complex projects in the world from the physical layer all the way to the application layer...

  13. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wi
    Posts
    101
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    Oh and side note, Pi boards for BAS is a ridiculous idea.

    The reason why these controllers cost so much besides for having to pay to support all the legacy products the OEM's have is because they actually dump a lot of time into testing their outputs and inputs for accuracy and functionality. I DO NOT want a Pi board controller the pressurization sequence for an isolation room at a hospital.

  14. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wi
    Posts
    101
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    On a side note we need to end this work from home crap. Watching little kids all day makes me snarky as hell.

  15. Likes crab master liked this post.
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