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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    6
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    Likely buying a new furnace... old one, Carrier, afflicted by a defective HE

    Have a 6K sq. ft. home with a LP 100K Carrier unit in the basement (90%) that was installed when house was built in 2000. Have had routine service since I purchased house in 2009 with the latest service call advising me that my secondary HE was failing/had failed, that there was a class action as this was a known defect and that I am out of luck because of a 20 year cutoff (manufactured date lists 1999 and I know it's the original unit). Now why this wasn't mentioned last year or the year before or the year before... but nonetheless my first question is if such an appraisal of the situation is accurate? Further he stated the repair would not be economical versus purchasing a new system given the difficulties in replacing said HE on a Carrier. As such he sent over three quotes for a new system, American Standard brand, all in the 4-5k range installed. In 2010 I had a Rheem 14 Seer Heat Pump installed to cut down on propane usage and now it's performance is lagging.

    I have tried to read reviews, and Consumer Reports, and am convinced that the pricing versus quality among the main manufactures does not correlate as highly as one might expect thus I am strongly considering one of two Goodman's if I do go the replacement route:
    GMVC961005CN or
    GMVM971005CN
    though reading your fine forums have given me concern about the ComfortBridge technology inhibiting the positive effects of a modulating burner.
    Opinions on those particular models or the brand in-general is appreciated but a larger concern is finding an attentive, detail oriented HVAC pro to do the install once purchased. I have located this site's map of members but am concerned that many won't or could not do a third-party purchased install and it appears I have to order Goodman products myself via internet supply houses.
    FWIW I live in SW Ohio, close to the Kings Island Amusement park if any nearby Pro's out there want some business.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Oh
    Posts
    7,335
    Post Likes
    We are in your area but do not do third party purchased equipment, nor does anyone on this site to my knowledge.

    Are you aware that carrier may still do a credit on a new carrier furnace?

    As far not finding it during tuneups, to be frank, if its not bad or failing, I dont bring it up.
    "Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."

    "Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."

    "Just get it done son."

    Dad adjusted

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Dover, DE
    Posts
    11,853
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    http://hipspro.com/pubs/Furnace-clas...led_notice.pdf

    Consumer reports/consumer review sites dont really know anything about the end product of HVAC, and offer unrealistic opinions on quality and reliability.
    Do you plan on buying this equipment yourself, online?
    I havent failed. Ive just found 10,000 ways that wont work. - Thomas Edison

    Its not whether you get knocked down, its whether you get up. - Vince Lombardi

    "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics" - Homer Simpson

    Local 486 Instructor & Service Technician

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,092
    Post Likes
    You have a 20 year old high efficient furnace that is failing. That is a very good run for a high efficient furnace no matter who manufactured it or how well it was maintained. Longevity is dependent on, installation, maintenance, what temperatures the home was maintained at, the quality of the combustion air it was getting and the list goes on and on.

    You believe you should have been informed that potentially you would have HE issues with this furnace by the servicing contractor. Even if the contractor you had doing the yearly maintenance each year since you bought the home was a registered Carrier dealer their technicians are sent out to make sure the furnace is performing at it's peak performance at that time. Every furnace fails eventually for one reason or another and like I said to get 20 years out of a HE LP furnace is expected before having major issues and costs.

    Looking for someone to install a furnace that you purchase online will more than likely get you one of two things. Either the contractor is starving and will do anything for a buck, or the contractor could care less about the outcome because he isn't on the hook for any issues or warranties because the unit was purchased outside of the normal supply chain and thus isn't backed up by anyone other that you and the internet seller. Most manufacturers will not honor warranties on online purchases of HVAC equipment which means you only hope of a remedy will be with the seller.

    Your situation is you have a failing furnace and a HP that isn't performing as expected. It's the perfect time to get a professional to look everything over and suggest the best way to go for the next 20 years so that the investment you'll make provides you with comfort and energy savings in your large home.
    Use the biggest hammer you like, pounding a square peg into a round hole does not equal a proper fit.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Chico, Ca #StateofJefferson
    Posts
    1,886
    Post Likes
    You won't find anyone besides some Chuck in a truck off craigslist to do 3rd party installs. 1. Online orders carry no warranty, some part on that breaks it's on YOU to haggle it out with an online seller. 2. Just being honest, I dont work for free and I dont expect my employer to either. The hourly rate holds a negligible profit in it, that just keeps gas in the tank and workmans comp paid. We are experiencing a great economy where work is being turned down due to a manpower shortage, so why is anyone with an in demand skill set going to do it for free? Not trying to bust your chops, but the reality of what your thinking of doing fills up pages of threads on this forum with how badly it turns out. You maybe suffering from a refrigerant leak in your heatpump evap coil as it seems every manufacturer was involved in class action lawsuits about these during that period of time. Most manufacturers have switched to all aluminum coils which has greatly reduced the amount of coils leaking under the 10 year part warranty. Dont worry about the brand name, your shopping for the best contractor you can find to size and install it correctly. I've seen lots of name brand top of the line equipment become a money pit due to poor install practices and budget equipment last a long time, trouble free, IF its correctly sized and installed. Skilled labor isnt cheap, cheap labor isnt skilled and this stuff isnt plug and play, it's a system that must be engineered into your house appropriately or efficiency, reliability and comfort will suffer. Try doing your own block load version of manual j at Loadcalc.net and see how much needed capacity you come up with. If you have a measuring tape and can use google, you can be fairly accurate. Then I'd find out how much your current ductwork leaks and what the static pressure is while running in heating and cooling to determine how much airflow your current ducting can handle. Then ask friends, family & employers who they use and trust and begin interviewing those contractors for the job

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sea to Sky
    Posts
    3,690
    Post Likes
    1.) You have a 6000 sq foot home heated by a single furnace??? I would be tracking down the super tech that installed that and all the ductwork since he apparently put it together so well that you had good airflow throughout your house and a high efficiency furnace lasted 20 years.

    2.) I would not he replacing that unit with anything other than a single stage hi efficiency furnace unless you enjoy having low airflow when a two stage or modulating lowers the blower speed.

    3.) Good luck getting Chuck in a truck to replace your internet bought furnace properly. Probably won't last 5 years that way and have fun dealing with the lack of warranty then.

    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    40,775
    Post Likes
    If you can find a H-Talk company that services your area, jump on it. I ran a service call on an internet purchased system. Leaking indoor coil. He would need a contractor to remove the coil, he would have to ship it back to the seller, wait for a replacement, pay a contractor to reinstall it. Be without cooling for who knows how long. Even though we are one of the biggest dealers of that brand in town, they still wouldn't cover it, said he had to go back to the seller. You don't save much buying internet. A "Smart" dealer, one you'd want doing your work, knows you are taking some revenue away from him by buying your own furnace so he'll charge more labor as his costs are the same whether he sells the unit or not.

    Wise move is rethink internet purchase and give hvacvegas a call.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    9,509
    Post Likes
    Quote Originally Posted by BALloyd View Post
    1.) You have a 6000 sq foot home heated by a single furnace??? I would be tracking down the super tech that installed that and all the ductwork since he apparently put it together so well that you had good airflow throughout your house and a high efficiency furnace lasted 20 years.

    2.) I would not he replacing that unit with anything other than a single stage hi efficiency furnace unless you enjoy having low airflow when a two stage or modulating lowers the blower speed.

    3.) Good luck getting Chuck in a truck to replace your internet bought furnace properly. Probably won't last 5 years that way and have fun dealing with the lack of warranty then.

    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
    X2!!!!!
    The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
    Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
    from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    6
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    Thread Starter
    Thanks for all your responses, I appreciate your time and wisdom. WRT the internet purchase, the two systems I mentioned are Goodman brand and I thought that's how they sold them - through internet-based supply houses. I am not aware of a local shop aside from Jonestone Supply that reps the Goodman brand. I believe the Goodman warranty is valid as long as a licensed contractor does the install - and I definitely want to hire a Pro to do that. An old family friend and HVAC pro who retired to a lake in Tennessee recommended Day and Night as a quality brand (he said it's a Carrier with a different name-plate) at a fair price but also cannot locate a supplier here in SW Ohio.

    I did indeed do my own Load Calc... great resource.. and came up with 79K BTU. Current basement system is 100K. I do have another system located in a 3rd floor loft which was just replaced last year. I went with a matched HE system, Carrier brand, and it's job is to heat and cool the second floor where most the bedrooms are located. When doing the load calculation I focused on the first floor as well as the walkout basement and discounted the upper levels.

    If Carrier does extend a credit to another system in their product family I would consider it however I am concerned that the problem that was addressed in the class action suit will just re-appear if they didn't address their material engineering failure. If I am making a $5K investment in an HVAC system and I maintain it as I do I expect it to last 20 years.... I still occasionally drive a 2005 F-150 with over 300K miles and am a believer that if you buy quality in a durable good and you perform maintenance that product should last. It saddens me to no end how many Americans have come to accept planned obsolescence and a "throw-away" culture where quality is at best secondary.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Southold, NY
    Posts
    27,383
    Post Likes
    No dealer will honor the warranty. You get to deal with whatever dot com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Dover, DE
    Posts
    11,853
    Post Likes
    There isn’t any real “quality” brand.
    Even if you buy from a local supply house, they aren’t going to send a tech or cut a check for the labor of the unit breaks down. So if someone needs to come repair the furnace it’s your responsibility to cover labor, even if the furnace is 1 week old.
    I havent failed. Ive just found 10,000 ways that wont work. - Thomas Edison

    Its not whether you get knocked down, its whether you get up. - Vince Lombardi

    "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics" - Homer Simpson

    Local 486 Instructor & Service Technician

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    2,594
    Post Likes
    There are many Goodmana dealers in Cincinnati. Now how good of a company they are who knows, goodmana is known for selling to anyone with a heartbeat. Most all brands are on the same page of quality, the biggest reason I dont care for goodmana products is they are normally installed by the most unqualified contractors just put to make a buck and do it as quick as possible.

    And the warranty is only thru the online retailer no distributor or dealer is going to warranty a part that was purchased of the online/internet sales. So if that online company goes out of business or changes their name or just refuses to supply your part while under the supposed warranty then you just bought a unit as is where is.
    Also units do come DOA(aka dead on arrival) occasionally, how long of a wait will it be to get the part to repair the unit from the online supplier if it happens? Your installer will also have to charge you for fixing your online new system.

    Day and night name is not used in Cincinnati that I know of. If you want a Carrier product: you have choices of carrier, Bryant, Payne, comfortmaker, tempstar, heil, etc.

    The brand name on the product will not cause any real significant price difference. The major price difference is the quality and amount of work that the dealer is performing to make sure your next LP system lasts to hopefully the next 20 years. I am not the cheapest by far, I dont compete with race to the bottom contractors that could care less how long or well your system will last. Companies that advertise they will beat or match any other quote are usually a company that you dont want working at your house.

    A saying my dad used to always say:
    I am to poor to buy cheap and then buy over again, buy once cry once.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    9,509
    Post Likes
    Carrier has furnaces that do NOT use that type of heat exchanger material, you just need to make sure to specify what you want/ask questions.

    Yes, the mfr will honor a warranty, but you supply all the labor, shipping and downtime while waiting for the warranty to be processed.
    The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
    Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
    from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ

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