New Heat Pump Needed - Varying Info on Quotes

[samepdx]

Hi all,

Brand new to the site and would love some insight on my current situation. I recently moved into a 110 year-old home (3,200 sqft, but 1,200 is unfinished basement) in the Pacific Northwest that has a 2005 Carrier 4-ton single stage heat pump and air handler. We have a ton of windows, some of which were replaced, and I'm sure very little insulation in the walls.

Once the weather got colder, we noticed the temperature coming through the vents was fluctuating quite a bit. A tech came out and told us the compressor was broken and needs to be replaced. He recommended replacing the whole system on a 15 year old pump. We are currently using the back up electric furnace to heat the house.

We have now received quotes from five different companies, and asked for options of replacing only the heat pump, the heat pump and air handler, or switching over to a gas furnace and A/C.

Three companies only install Daikin, and two install Carrier. The two that use Carrier were the only ones who quoted us and even recommended just replacing the heat pump because our current air handler was a high-end model in 2005 and functioning properly. From reading many posts on this site, I know it is not recommended and risky to only replace part of the system. However, this was admittedly a large expense we were not anticipating.

Whether it be for Daikin or Carrier equipment, we have received vastly different recommendations on the type of heat pump (single, double stage, variable) and some of the techs recommended switching over to gas because it would be easier to heat the house.

The last company who came out did a pressure test with the air handler and said our system was under too much pressure. Essentially, the ducting was installed before the heat pump, and is too small for the current pump. Because of this, he only recommended a few, less powerful heat pumps.

I know that for whichever system we go with, the install will be the most important part of it functioning well, but I am curious to know if I can get away with only replacing the heat pump? If not, are there specific questions I should be asking to determine the right size and power of heat pump or A/C / gas furnace?

Thank you in advance for your help and I'm happy to provide any additional information needed.

[Bazooka Joe]

Propane or natural gas? look at other lesser known brands, chances the overall price will be less. Better off installing a matched system instead of just the OD unit.

Don’t know what you mean by lesser powerful Heat Pumps. If your keeping your existing smaller sized ductwork without any modifications a new system won’t help much.

Did the other 5 companies you called verify that your compressor was bad?

Do not know what Daiken and Carrier policy is if you only change the OD section and leave a 15+ year old indoor section in place in regards to manufacturers warranty. Could easily be cut in half as it’s not a matched new ID section to OD unit?

[samepdx]

Thanks for the reply. We currently have natural gas in the house. It seems like most companies around here only offer the higher end brands like Carrier and Daikin.

As for less powerful heat pumps, I guess I meant more of a basic model, like single stage compared to variable. Unfortunately, based on the estimates, we won't be able to to make any modifications to the existing ductwork. I did speak with another tech who quoted us and said the ductwork is not ideal (most likely installed when there was an oil tank), but won't put stress on the system.

I don't believe the other companies verified that the compressor was bad, as they only sent sales people to give us estimates on new equipment. I can certainly find out what the warranties would be if we only replace the heat pump and leave the existing air handler. From what I have read, Daikin offers one of the best warranties, and Carrier's is decent.

[Bazooka Joe]

Myself,...seeing you have natural gas at your residence I like a gas furnace with a uncomplicated Heat Pump, called a Hybrid system, switches to gas or HP depending on OD temperature. Certainly would need to take care of the ductwork. Amana has even a better warranty than Daiken ( same company ) thou the Daiken typically has a better parts warranty ( up to 12 years to the Amana 10 years ) but depending on tier level and model the Amana OD unit or furnace you get a whole new furnace or OD unit if compressor ever fails to original registered owner and a new furnace if the HX ever fails to original registered owner, whereas the Daiken you get either a 6 or 12 year new OD unit or furnace if your hung up on best manufacturers warranty.

Anyway that’s my worth.

[samepdx]

Thanks so much for your recommendation. Temperatures around her only get below freezing anywhere from 1-3 weeks total during the winter. If we were to switch over to a gas furnace, would you then still recommend a new heat pump, or replace with an A/C instead?

I guess our ideal situation would be to simply replace the heat pump (lowest cost) and leave the air handler as is, provided the two components are compatible and don't drastically reduce warranties. The tech I spoke with today said if we do that, we can most likely get another 5-10 years out of our current air handler.

[Bazooka Joe]

If you want to keep the Air Handler, and it’s a 13 SEER unit I’d just put a lower tier brand, such as a 13 SEER Goodman or similar. Should get 10/10 warranty. You never mentioned if your system is R22 or R410A as that affects your metering device, I’m sure the bidding Contractors mentioned that? Blowing out lineset with nitrogen wouldn’t hurt also.

If you have a acidic burnout ( why compressor failed ) may need more work cleaning system $$. I would hire a contractor and have them send a experienced tech. first to check your compressor to see exactly what happened. Could be something simple that caused your compressor from starting, especially if the breaker never tripped. Shouldn’t cost more than one hour labor plus trip charge and tax.

[samepdx]

So the air handler is a Carrier FV4BNF005. From what I found online, it has a SEER rating of 14 and uses R410A refrigerant. I also saw that it has a dual speed fan, but one of the techs mentioned we could only install a single stage heat pump because our air handler is single speed.

The tech who originally diagnosed the issue said that our refrigerant levels were low, which most likely caused the compressor to fail. I can have someone else come out and determine exactly why it stopped working.

[dan sw fl]

Hi all,

Brand new to the site and would love some insight on my current situation.

I recently moved into a 110 year-old home
(3,200 sqft, but 1,200 is unfinished basement)
in the Pacific Northwest that has
a 2005 Carrier 4-ton single stage heat pump and air handler.

We have a ton of windows, some of which were replaced,
and I'm sure very little insulation in the walls.

Once the weather got colder,
we noticed the temperature coming through the vents was fluctuating quite a bit.
A tech came out and told us the compressor was broken and needs to be replaced.

He recommended replacing the whole system on a 15 year old pump.
We are currently using the back up electric furnace to heat the house.

Thank you in advance for your help and
I'm happy to provide any additional information needed.

First Step
_____ ACCA Manual J calc

Second Step
__________ Equipment Selection
__________ Suggestion: Hybrid / Heat Pump + Natural Gas Furnace
……………………………………….. Switchover ~ 44'F

1st _ Heat Loss / Conceptual
___ 67,000 BTU/HR +/- 24%

Presumed
1. 410 Square Feet of Glass
2. 2 Story

[Bazooka Joe]

So the air handler is a Carrier FV4BNF005. From what I found online, it has a SEER rating of 14 and uses R410A refrigerant. I also saw that it has a dual speed fan, but one of the techs mentioned we could only install a single stage heat pump because our air handler is single speed.

The tech who originally diagnosed the issue said that our refrigerant levels were low, which most likely caused the compressor to fail. I can have someone else come out and determine exactly why it stopped working.

If your refrigerant level was truly low, and you have a low pressure switch on the OD unit, then it could have easily opened the switch preventing the compressor from running. If that’s the case, the compressor could be OK the leak could be in the evaporator coil, or somewhere else.

If it’s in the coil, then installing just a new OD unit is not going to solve your problems, having a leaking ID coil. So suggest having someone ( real experienced Tech. ) check your system then make a termination. If the tech. Uses a electronic leak detector and picks up a leak at the ID coil, have him pinpoint it with the electronic then have him use soap to verify with bubbles and show you. Matter of fact have them show you with soap wherever the leak is. If it’s determined the ID coil is bad, they may still make replacement coils for that model? Probably will cost a arm and leg, as big name companies are known to charge contractors big bucks to have that lofted brand on your property.

[dan sw fl]

Walls: R-4 Board
Ceiling: R-25

Heat Loss: 55,800 BTU/HR at 24'F
_________ 33,160 BTU/HR at 42'F ODT
___ ___ ___ __ __ __ APPROX. Switchover Temp.

Known Energy Use
could be used to determine which
presumed BUILDING THERMAL ENVELOPE
more closely represents YOUR Home.

[dan sw fl]

OPERATING COST

__ EXAMPLE __

$_. _ _ / THERM NATURAL GAS

?? _ $0. _ _ KW-HR
____ ~ 0.11

[comfortdoc]

You can still get a Carrier, or one of the sister brand's (Bryant, Payne, Day-Night, etc) outdoor unit to match your indoor unit. If you are looking for an economical solution have the line-set and indoor unit pressure tested. If there is a leak find out where and repair if possible. Just change outdoor unit. If the leak is in the indoor unit then replacement is recommended for a 15 year-old unit.

Get a second opinion on the compressor being dead either way.

[pecmsg]

Hi all,

Brand new to the site and would love some insight on my current situation. I recently moved into a 110 year-old home (3,200 sqft, but 1,200 is unfinished basement) in the Pacific Northwest that has a 2005 Carrier 4-ton single stage heat pump and air handler. We have a ton of windows, some of which were replaced, and I'm sure very little insulation in the walls.

Once the weather got colder, we noticed the temperature coming through the vents was fluctuating quite a bit. A tech came out and told us the compressor was broken and needs to be replaced. He recommended replacing the whole system on a 15 year old pump. We are currently using the back up electric furnace to heat the house.

We have now received quotes from five different companies, and asked for options of replacing only the heat pump, the heat pump and air handler, or switching over to a gas furnace and A/C.

Three companies only install Daikin, and two install Carrier. The two that use Carrier were the only ones who quoted us and even recommended just replacing the heat pump because our current air handler was a high-end model in 2005 and functioning properly. From reading many posts on this site, I know it is not recommended and risky to only replace part of the system. However, this was admittedly a large expense we were not anticipating.

Whether it be for Daikin or Carrier equipment, we have received vastly different recommendations on the type of heat pump (single, double stage, variable) and some of the techs recommended switching over to gas because it would be easier to heat the house.

The last company who came out did a pressure test with the air handler and said our system was under too much pressure. Essentially, the ducting was installed before the heat pump, and is too small for the current pump. Because of this, he only recommended a few, less powerful heat pumps.

I know that for whichever system we go with, the install will be the most important part of it functioning well, but I am curious to know if I can get away with only replacing the heat pump? If not, are there specific questions I should be asking to determine the right size and power of heat pump or A/C / gas furnace?

Thank you in advance for your help and I'm happy to provide any additional information needed.

That's telling me the ducts are too small and this contractor is doing his job. Did they recommend what could be done to correct the issues or give any solutions?

[samepdx]

Thanks for the calculations and other insights. I'm going to reach out to the tech who originally diagnosed the problem to try and get some specifics on why the compressor broke. I will also get a second opinion.

If we are able to get away with only replacing the heat pump, would it have to be a Carrier or sister brand? Or can we explore other options such as Daikin, which we received the most quotes on.

As for making alterations to the ductwork, unfortunately it's just not in our budget at this time. There was only one tech out of five who mentioned this being an issue. With our current use of the backup electric furnace, the house seems to be heating well, with a few minor cold spots. The only truly cold room is the master bedroom on the second floor that is quite large and only has one register.

[pecmsg]

That’s unfortunate because they could be the reason for the failure.

This is how it works.
Equipment is sized for the heat load / loss of the building
Then the ducts are sized to the requirements of the equipment.
Too often the equipment is oversized and the ducts are undersized.

[samepdx]

The only solution he gave me was to go with a more basic heat pump, which was either a Daikin 4 ton 14 SEER or 15 SEER with 20kw Multispeed Electric Air Handler.

[Bazooka Joe]

IMO,

No it does not have to be a Carrier or sister brand, but as comfortdoc mentioned a Payne or Day Night would be a good choose even a no frill Carrier 13-14 SEER. I would not necessarily go over the top and put a 16 SEER OD unit as it takes the indoor and outdoor selection to determine a AHRI match. IMO even 15 SEER OD unit is pushing it. Being a 15 years old ID section there is no AHRI match.

[Bazooka Joe]

The only solution he gave me was to go with a more basic heat pump, which was either a Daikin 4 ton 14 SEER or 15 SEER with 20kw Multispeed Electric Air Handler.

big bucks to run a 20 KW heater, even breaking it up. As an example only, a refrigerator draws give or take 5 amps when running, a 20KW heater at 230volts draws approx. 80 amps. a 15KW heater draws approx. 60 amps. a 10 KW draws aprox. 40 amps.

What do you have for a heater size now in your existing Air Handler?

20KW = 68240BTU

[samepdx]

When I was looking up our current air handler (Carrier FV4BNF005), I noticed that it has a dual speed fan. Does that mean we can connect it to a two stage heat pump, or is fan speed in reference to something else? One tech said we could only use a single stage with our current air handler, another said we could use a two stage, and another said we could buy any and run it as a single stage.

Is an AHRI match required or is that just to confirm the energy efficiency stats?

[Bazooka Joe]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...peXtNyW2vxOZYQ

This shows it can be hooked to a 2 speed HP ( page 9 ) does not mention the NF after FV4B dated 2003.

So what is your OD unit now? a single or two speed?

Nowadays they call them single or two stage, so may want to get clarification if they are the same terminology.

The thing is they make 2 stages at around 16 SEER nowadays. Just because your old unit Air Handler say 14 SEER, does not mean you have a 14 SEER rated existing system, as it takes both the indoor and OD selection to determine SEER, EER, and HSPF. At 15 years old it will not show your existing combo on the current AHRI web-site.