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Thoughts on Delta Controls
I know “What do you think of…” threads have a tendency to go south quickly but Delta doesn’t have a strong presence in my area so I have to ask the community here.
Background:
I lead the BAS department at a mid-sized university with responsibility for approximately 80 buildings with varying degrees of complexity. Our current system is 85% Siemens Insight, 10% Metasys PMI, and 5% Metasys Extended Architecture. We continue to grow each year with new construction projects lined up pretty much as far out as we can see.
We've been very happy with Insight, know the product inside and out, and don't have to rely on Siemens for much outside of capital construction projects. Their local techs are fantastic, which makes the next part difficult. My team and I have been test-driving Siemens' new software, Desigo CC, for some time now and aren't exactly thrilled with it. I've decided that I need to investigate other options before taking the Desigo plunge.
I have taken a hard look at WebCTRL and ALC’s hardware but it’s very different from what we’re used to. Of the available alternatives, Delta seems to be the most similar to Siemens/Insight. Our ideal system would allow my team to continue doing everything...programming, graphics, trending, reporting, BACnet integration, all without beating heads against desks too much.
Many aspects of a system are subjective and the people involved make a huge difference. But things like can you get parts when you need them, can you get tech support when you need it, and do the controllers die regularly are pretty objective. So what's the word on Delta?
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I do JCI, niagara, Distech, Delta, Schneider occasionally, and I am a 2nd string Siemens guy. KMC if I have to.
I REALLY like Delta. I like their company culture, tech support is EASY to get as a technician. their online training is good and free. Of course the really good stuff is paid. You will quickly find a similarity between Siemens Insight and Delta. Their newer platform is called Entelivis - it is good, it is all browser based (kinds sorta like JCI) for he programming UI, the graphics are the fancy DigiLux stuff that is going around - but their version is prettier than Distech's. Their controller architecture revolves around larger AHU sized controllers that have an MSTP trunk on it for the associated drives, and VAVs - and tat talks BACNet IP to the server. a nice, neat ecosystem. I am not a text-based guy, but the programming is easy to follow and their implementation of text based programming is the best I have seen as far as readability and ease of diagnosis. If you are a KMC or Schneider guy you will have a fit when you work on Delta thinking why can't i get this!?!?!
Their stuff tends to hold up pretty well. they keep an online database of all their tech support calls and resolutions - so you can search that and get what you need. If it is not there, I can reach a warm body on their chat feature in minutes - usually instantly.
The only problems I see with Delta - all their AIs revolve around a 5vdc base - so you set it up as 0-10v and it comes up after you save it looking like a 0-5vdc input, it is a little confusing but easy to follow once you are used to it. also their is no way to connect directly to a controller and do purely offline programming. Sure you can copy and paste a bunch of text from your own stuff into a .txt file, but if you want to use the debugging tools you instead use a subscription to their online engineering site where there are virtual controllers you can upload and download to. It is annoying but not a deal-breaker. or you can use a controller of your own that is sitting on your workbench to do programming.
In our area the delta guys are awesome, but your results may vary of course.
In our area Siemens is impossible to deal with and their guys are crap, so I am biased against Siemens. We have another Siemens guy that is also not excited about the new rev they are out with. In my mind I am shocked that it took them so long to leave insight behind. EVERYONE moved away from that style 5-10 years ago.
I hope it helps!!
Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.
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Good day Controls_3AE,
I cannot speak towards their latest products, etc but having analyzed a number of their older controllers I was really surprised at how poorly their hardware was designed. In particular their controller inputs had the worst input protection I have ever seen on any of the controllers I have dismembered. Although input protection is "technically" not needed for correct operation, it does go a long way when things go sideways in the field and/or if the controllers/sensors experience electrical transient events.
As for the company culture... I had one experience with some of their people and I was equally unimpressed at the arrogance and attitude that was presented.
Again, these are just my experiences and so your mileage may vary... and given numbawunfela's experience it is a different.
Cheers,
Sam
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I can say I have never dismembered their controllers.. and s2sam usually has good insights. Trust his assesments.
Out of curiosity sam, do you happen to know what kind of controllers you dismembered or when?
Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.
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Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
they keep an online database of all their tech support calls and resolutions
This is what's missing from Tridium IMHO.
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Our whole research facility, around 8 buildings is all Delta controllers and Delta Controls operating system. We started with Delta more then 10 years ago, and we have no issues and good service. I have been at the facility for 2 years as an operator and the go to programming guy. Last programming I did before this was 20 years ago in highschool. Programming is text based, I have nothing to compare it to, but I think it makes sense for most people. All the new programming, graphics and hardware installs are done in house by us. If there are any specifics you want, just ask.
Edited to say, a few large apt complexes and the the city uses Delta at some of their places.
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One of the better BACnet lines out there, can't think of another that covers all the bases that it does. As Sam said the input protection leaves something to be desired, I personally have seen an installer connect 120VAC to an input that jumped to the MSTP buss and fried controllers down the line as well as that one. In order or BACnet controllers/systems that I prefer:
1. Delta Controls.
2. ALC (1. if BACnet integration is not your top priority. Best programming tools I have ever used).
3. Reliable Controls - best BACnet object/property support I have seen.
4. Andover Controls.
5. Distech - no real experience but heard good things and Tridium.
6. Innotech. Great hardware.
Just one man's opinion.
kontrol out
"Good" - Jocko
"Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
"Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
"BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
"Interoperability? You can't handle interoperability!" - Nathan R. Jessup
“What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora
Watch it here!
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It has a a presence here UK and growing but still few contractors and in so they charge a fortune for service , reminiscent of pre Bacnet pre Tridium eras. But the few techs I have met really like it, even being text based driven.
Keep it simple to keep it cool!
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Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
<snip>
Out of curiosity sam, do you happen to know what kind of controllers you dismembered or when?
Good day numbawunfela,
They were VAV controllers and this would have easily been over 5+ years ago. The units were being removed from a customer site and were being pitched, as the site had issues for years. To be fair the site's issues were not specifically with Delta's controllers, but that the customer just had enough and punted everything. I grabbed one and analyzed it, as I was unsure when I would get another chance. I say this, as Delta is very uncommon in my area even though their head office is just one Province over. Interestingly, I have yet to see another Delta since then.
The only other manufacturer that shocked me was the EasyIO controllers. I analyzed one of their medium sized controllers about 3 or so years ago and here I found their MS/TP interface had minimal input protection, only 2-wires (so no reference), and was no electrically isolated. I mentioned the lack of the RS485 reference to one of their integrators who relayed it to one EasyIO's tech team... who responded that the reference wire was not needed. That is all I needed to know about their tech department, as if they were clueless about RS485 what else would they be clueless upon. Again, your mileage my vary.
Cheers,
Sam
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As an old Andover proramming guy, all the way back to drum style, I picked the Delta up very easily.
Installed several jobs, had very few issues.
One of the better tech support set ups Ive ran into, quick response and good support guys/gals.
Didnt do enough of it to speak to long term durability, but none of the newer stuff holds up like old Andover AC256 or Carrier IOs IMHO
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Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
Their controller architecture revolves around larger AHU sized controllers that have an MSTP trunk on it for the associated drives, and VAVs - and tat talks BACNet IP to the server. a nice, neat ecosystem.
That sounds very similar to Siemens' PXC controllers. One of my main concerns with ALC is that it seems like you need a router for everything. You want to integrate a VFD? You need a router for that. A pump skid...you need a router for that, too. I'm not sold on ARC156, either.
Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
I am not a text-based guy, but the programming is easy to follow and their implementation of text based programming is the best I have seen as far as readability and ease of diagnosis.
Again, very similar to Siemens. My team loves PPCL programming but I understand that it's not everyone's preferred way to write code.
Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
In our area the delta guys are awesome, but your results may vary of course. In our area Siemens is impossible to deal with and their guys are crap, so I am biased against Siemens. We have another Siemens guy that is also not excited about the new rev they are out with. In my mind I am shocked that it took them so long to leave insight behind. EVERYONE moved away from that style 5-10 years ago.
So much depends on the people behind the product. Our Siemens guys are the best. They do things the way we want them to be done and the quality of their work is top notch. Everything in a panel is labeled, the wiring is neat, and they label VAV locations on the ceiling grid among other things. I wish their new product matched the quality of their people (at least the folks in our branch). I agree that Insight is dated and desperately needed an upgrade but Desigo is not Insight v4. It's very different and doesn't do what Insight did right out of the box. It's a very capable and customizable platform but it's not intuitive at all.
Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
I hope it helps!!
Very, very helpful! Thank you so much.
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Originally Posted by
Gdh33
Our whole research facility, around 8 buildings is all Delta controllers and Delta Controls operating system.
If you have lab spaces in your research facility, are they Delta controllers as well or are they a 3rd party like Phoenix or TSI?
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One of my main concerns with ALC is that it seems like you need a router for everything. You want to integrate a VFD? You need a router for that. A pump skid...you need a router for that, too. I'm not sold on ARC156, either.
My biggest hang-up with ALC. They can be installed with MSTP but that's not default for them and dealers will do everything in their power to install them as ARC156.
kontrol out
"Good" - Jocko
"Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
"Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
"BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
"Interoperability? You can't handle interoperability!" - Nathan R. Jessup
“What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora
Watch it here!
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Originally Posted by
kontrolphreak
They can be installed with MSTP but that's not default for them and dealers will do everything in their power to install them as ARC156.
In the name of customer education....
Mr. 3AE, this practice is to try their best to keep other vendors out of their buildings. The ONLY way to talk ARC156 is using an ALC device/router. This means if you may someday have a falling out with ALC, it is that much harder to move away from it.
Nobody buys stuff so they can throw it away, but it may play into your decision making.
Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.
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Reply for Controls_3AE
"If you have lab spaces in your research facility, are they Delta controllers as well or are they a 3rd party like Phoenix or TSI?"
All the main controllers are Delta. DSC's, and some of their newer stuff (DACS, DNZTs?). Some VAVs, our fumehoods, and FCU's have small local controllers on them, some are Neptronics, Regulvar, KMC forget other brands. Local controllers send info by bacnet to main controllers which run the building. Other equipment have Bacnet gateways to get all the info out to the controllers and then we send outputs, or sometimes bacnet commands to the equipment. But a lot of the building is inputs and outputs off the delta controllers hardwired to devices.
Think we have about 50 delta controllers. Mostly DSC 2424. Over 100 fcu controllers, maybe 20 fumehood controllers.
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Originally Posted by
kontrolphreak
My biggest hang-up with ALC. They can be installed with MSTP but that's not default for them and dealers will do everything in their power to install them as ARC156.
I definitely get the vibe from talking to the ALC guys that they do things the ALC way. And if you want something different, you're just not smart enough to see the light.
Originally Posted by
numbawunfela
In the name of customer education....
Mr. 3AE, this practice is to try their best to keep other vendors out of their buildings. The ONLY way to talk ARC156 is using an ALC device/router. This means if you may someday have a falling out with ALC, it is that much harder to move away from it.
Nobody buys stuff so they can throw it away, but it may play into your decision making.
We avoided BACnet for years preferring to stick with Siemens P1/P2. It's rock solid but now we're in the situation you describe. ALC may be BACnet, but no one will convince me that BACnet over ARC156 isn't proprietary like P1/P2.
\\End ALC bashing
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Originally Posted by
Controls_3AE
ALC may be BACnet, but no one will convince me that BACnet over ARC156 isn't proprietary like P1/P2.
You are smarter than some.
Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.
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Never mind. Didn't read completely.
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Originally Posted by
Gdh33
Reply for Controls_3AE
"If you have lab spaces in your research facility, are they Delta controllers as well or are they a 3rd party like Phoenix or TSI?"
maybe 20 fumehood controllers.
I'll have to dig up a recent ASHRAE mag you should also drop in. Today's labs and their complexity doing anything over comms within a space, not a great idea IMO. Not sure how Delta handles it, but there is a strong case against these packaged hood systems as typically sold once things get a bit more complicated.
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Agree on the comms thing. Would love to see that article. Think we only take total cfm and an on status or motor feedback from hood controller through comms. Not any issues that we see, worst case would be low flow on hood from no make up air, alarm to indicate that and we fix the problem?