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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatPump123 View Post
    Hem well so far our best deal is with the Goodman machine, we had great customer service and the seller responded very well to all of my technical questions discussed and validated by E-mail. He also understands us when we ask for the best quality of installation possible to achieve, I believe him.

    Everything is fine so far except for the commissioning form and making the proof that the machine will be efficient at 14.5SEER and 9.0 HSPS as clamed.

    This is the machine, I guess it must be the same thing you are looking at Bazooka Joey?

    https://www.goodmanmfg.com/pdfviewer....pdf?view=true

    Following the logic it should be a model GSZ14 0241 ??, the revision, I don't know, I'll have to ask about that tomorrow. I saw at page 41 or 42 the GSZ14 0241 L has no "hard start kit" But, they both have the anti-short cycle kit which I think is the promised and included device that will shut the machine off when there is an electricity drops. I also asked to get an extra overvoltage security device included in the price, the Defrost should be a Time & temperature. Has for the crack case heater, it's not clear yet but I think all models come with it.

    ***
    Have you decided on a brand and model? As an example if you decide on the Goodman HP, the install guide ( which you can easily download ) mentions, if OD temperature is below 60 degree, charge by weight method, adding a certain amount of refrigerant if lineset is over a certain footage. Then when it come to warmer weather down the road, to check and do the final adjustment charge ( to either subcooling or superheat or both, depending on metering device ) cool mode when it’s above 60 degree OD temperature.

    Ok I am starting to see but it's complicated. I need to read about Refrigerant charge.. (tomorrow) to understand more.

    Mentions opening up the vapor line service valve 1st to avoid pulling oil out of the compressor. If you have a crankcase heater on the model of choose to energize the OD unit for 24 hours.(OK)

    Each manufacturer has specific install guides to follow. They need to follow the install guide yes

    Hopefully the existing lineset will be sized correctly for the new unit of choose. It's there in the spec sheet, this one can be validated easily, we will get 100% new tubing.

    Make sure before they leave is to make sure the defrost works, that it switches from oil to HP and vie versa, your emergency oil heat works, once it’s flipped to emergency heat mode at the stat. OK
    https://www.alpinehomeair.com/relate...ec%20Sheet.pdf

    Page 36 gives only one AHRI match with a generic oil or gas furnace. Says 14 SEER and 8.2 HSPF for a 2 ton. Needs a field installed preferably a OEM TXV to even reach the 14 SEER mark.

    Go to the AHRI website given and enter 7995002 ( which was taken from page 36.) believe that number has been updated to a newer number.

    I’m very interested in knowing the AHRI number they give you to prove a 14.5 SEER and 9.5 HSPF. When you get it post it, don’t believe they can find one.

    Here’s the install guide of a Goodman HP, explains pretty much everything that was mentioned, dated 2018. It mentions opening the suction service value first, I said vapor line, as in heat pump terminology the suction line ( on the lineset ) is called a vapor line. But anyway...

    https://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/IOG-4002B.pdf
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 12-04-2019 at 09:44 PM.

  2. #41
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    I don't have too much time now because I need to work, but I think my manual has a superior revision

    https://www.goodmanmfg.com/pdfviewer....pdf?view=true

    At the page 41 of 42 the GZS14 241xx has TN2N4A I'll have to search google to understand what it is exactly but it looks like a TXV kit is included.

    What exactly is OD unit or OD temperature.. usually for me OD is outside diameter but in this case I just don't know*.

    Finally, I still need to study the AHRI website and the installation guide before I commit to buy and thanks for the installation Manual, it's very useful tool, I started reading it already.

    By memory, is there a commissioning form for the Goodman GSZ14 machine? Instead of using a sheet from another compagny... I think it would be better to get the sheet dedicated for the machine, although, it could be universal but I am not 100% sure.

  3. #42
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    This ones dated 7/19 shows you need the TX2N4A which is a OEM ( original equipment manufacturer ) part if they install the CA*F cased coil. Page 39. These are accessories, does not come with the coil ( CAUF or CAPF ) the TXV comes from the factory on CAPT models.

    You do not have a reciprocating compressor but a scroll. You can do a internet search to distinguish the difference.

    https://www.ecomfort.com/manuals/8a0...395054e771.pdf

    OD unit and OD temperature means outdoor, ID means indoor.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...AY4DfhvtGIOx75

    Dated 2016 for the indoor coil, requires a 2” elevation ( uncased coil ) above furnace and discusses installing a high temperature drain pan for oil applications.

    What’s the model number of the ID coil they propose, odd they tell you a OD unit but no ID coil number?

    Overview for Goodman HTP-B
    The Goodman HTP-B High Temperature Drain Pan is used on evaporator coils installed with an oil furnace. Oil furnaces burn hotter than natural gas or liquid propane furnaces (over 300 degrees F) which would melt the standard plastic drain pan included with Goodman evaporator coils. Granted it’s dated 2015.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...laUxRViCA9qIWg

    This one is dated 2019 so it’s still in effect, go to Product Specifications
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 12-05-2019 at 10:04 AM.

  4. #43
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    Ok thanks,

    I asked for exact machine model (**) including the revision and coil model as well. I was told it's a 16x20x19 1/2 either Aspen or Goodman, I asked to know the exact model.


    Thanks for the OD and OEM explanation.

  5. #44
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    Those dimension numbers don’t mean anything, you want the model number they propose or better yet the AHRI number to prove your getting the 14.5 SEER and 9.5 HSPF with your furnace. Isn’t that what they proposed? Aspen matches Goodman also...didn’t look up Aspen coils to a Goodman OD unit, just Goodman in and out, so maybe it’s possible?

    Don’t know why I only concentrated on a Goodman ID coil instead of other brands of coil manufacturers, maybe it was the Goodman TXV number you provided?

    If it’s a Aspen coil, don’t believe you’ll need a high temperature drain pan, but you can ask.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 12-05-2019 at 10:38 AM.

  6. #45
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    I am starting to feel anxious about this, proving SEER and HSPS. I want a machine that is equal or better then the older one, frankly if it's not exactly working at SEER 14 as long as it's heating a bit more then the previous machine and costing a bit less electricity it's OK. That would be enough I think.

    Although, I like the idea of getting a commission sheet, the checklist to make sure things are installed as specified by the manufacturer so the machine might last longer if it's running according to specs. That seems to be the most important thing.

    i don't want to go fill the AHRI website with numbers, they need to prove to me the machine is working at 14 and 9, it's heating more and costing less electricity they have to give me the proof on the paper themselves.

    If we buy a SEER 14 machine, we are not going to do any modifications to the existing system to make it work at 14 anyway.. We already passed from 16 to 14, everybody seems to agree with that.

  7. #46
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    Starting at January 2006 the minimum standard was 13, prior to that believe it was 10 SEER, so chances your unit is a 10-12 SEER at best. So certainly at 14 SEER ( which can easily be reached ) AHRI rated. I’m sure it will be more efficient. All you got to do is check your OD unit electrical data plate attached to the OD unit, ( if it’s not faded away ) then compare to the new unit of choose electrical data plate, to get a rough idea of what the compressor and OD fan motor draw for amprege. Should easily be less.

    Or better yet have them take the amprege draw of the existing compressor and OD fan motor ( separate of each ) then when you replace have them do the same thing at similar OD and ID temperatures in the same mode, meaning in heat mode, as an example to compare.

    Still need to follow the install guide as closely as possible of whatever brand model you decide on and some type of commissioning report.

    The point was what Contractors bid, many homeowners think it’s just based on a OD unit SEER. Whether that’s due to they (homeowners) don’t know any better or the Contractor deceives ( whether they know it or not ) the homeowners somewhat, system will still work.

    Those numbers are not real word but at least tells the homeowners they are getting what they are paying for, also when rebates apply ( your system not being one ) you need that AHRI number.

    Did look at Aspen coils to Goodman OD unit briefly, thinking that dimension you provided is for a upflow uncased coil even if going to a 2.5 ton coil, found many matches showing 14 SEER and 8.2 HSPF. Again that was not a detailed search but a fairly good search thou.

    Again at the very least I would have them install a high temperature ID coil ( for peace of mind ) pan IF........you go with the Goodman ID coil, and raise the coil 2” above the furnace, as the install guide given you shows to do that.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 12-05-2019 at 12:42 PM.

  8. #47
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    Thanks again Joey.

    So they can fill the AHRI page and print a certificate with the numbers.. Just like you did and we saw previously (I can't see the data from the job unfortunately)

    And after that, do they have to prove what's written on the paper with various readings on the new system, part of the commissioning form procedure?

    I'll compare the plates of the 2 machines tonight.. i have the partial specs of the older machine, but the specs of the new one are not inside the install guide. Not easy. I need to work again.



  9. #48
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    https://www.ecomfort.com/manuals/8a0...395054e771.pdf


    You can go by this guide page 3 shows compressor and OD man motor similar amprege draw on paper, but those numbers are not set in stone. It’s not like your going to get exactly those readings as voltage variation, OD and ID temperature changes those numbers, the harder the compressor works due to a extremely hot day, with refrigerant pressures higher uses more amprege to run. Reason for checking old system to new system at similar OD and ID temperatures and mode. Both need to be in heat or cool, not one running in heat and other running in cool or vise versa while drawing amprege readings.

    It’s interesting to note that your maximum overcurrent protection for your existing system is 30 amps. as shown at that data plate whereas the Goodman 2 ton maximum overcurrent protection is 25. Now if your OD unit shut off switch does not have any fuses in it, I personally would have them replace your existing 22 year old existing breaker and install the correct size that Goodman wants. Breakers are such a minimal cost item and does not take a long time to changeout for Contractors.

    Me,IMO......new system,.... new matched breaker.

  10. #49
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    Hello Bzaooka.. I think you are 100% right with the breaker.. but the Goodman guy I suspect I blew thing off with him, he is not calling back. He was supposed to check with Goodman about the commission form and check list at the end and call me back with that...

    Perhaps it's speaking about the contractor, he doesn't want to prove anything at the end of the job...

    Because of that we had time to think and we now want to call more people to get more prices on other brands. We will take our time, pay for an extra tank of oil, use the Emergency heat longer.. we are entering the very cold period also.. December to Febuary.

    I keep the breaker size in mind for the future, that's an obvious and basic thing.. but honestly I didn't even read the Goodman installation guide yet..

    I am going to continue with other contractors, we want to get a price for a Carrier branded machine now.

    http://www.carrier.ca/fr/produits/th...t-25hbc3/39/67

    https://dms.hvacpartners.com/docs/10...urrentPage%3D1

  11. #50
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    The 25HBC3 you quoted seems to be a obsolete model? Did not see that listed in the Heat Pump section unless I’m mistaken? Don’t know exactly when they stopped making them, possibly recently, and this model are at the distributors already offered to Contractors at reduced price to get rid of them? The 2nd specifications sheet seems to be dated in 2012.

    https://www.carrier.com/residential/...ts/heat-pumps/

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...zZ9v8iiJQoKCwr

    I’m guessing they also could not guarantee the minimum HSPF or SEER they mentioned either.

    The breaker thing could also be that they are not authorized to get into the breaker panel, as that may need to be under a licensed Electrical Contractor??
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 12-10-2019 at 09:54 AM.

  12. #51
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    The Carrier heat pump is on the Canadian website.. thanks for telling me it's an older model. I will ask the next person if they can guarantee the minimum HSPS and SEER.

    The seller from the Goodman machine told me they will guarantee SEER and HSPS on a new installation only... they never do it on existing systems.. I suspect perhaps they don't know how to do it or it's a matter of paying hours of time to do it. Everything can be solved with money.

  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatPump123 View Post
    The Carrier heat pump is on the Canadian website.. thanks for telling me it's an older model. I will ask the next person if they can guarantee the minimum HSPS and SEER.

    The seller from the Goodman machine told me they will guarantee SEER and HSPS on a new installation only... they never do it on existing systems.. I suspect perhaps they don't know how to do it or it's a matter of paying hours of time to do it. Everything can be solved with money.
    Post the latest and greatest Canadian Carrier web-site as the one you sent is almost four years old. Certainly a big name company like Carrier must have current Canadian 2019 models web-site.

    Here’s one found from Carrier Canada dated 2016 check on 25HBC3 and nothing shows at least in English, yes something shows once you click in French, click on 25HBC5 and it shows a detailed specifications. But this site is four years old.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xUPXnclX5w4Nu9

    Odd that the Goodman bid said they only guarantee HSPF and SEER on a new system, as a new OD unit to a new ID coil to an existing furnace is still a new Heat Pump system that comes with a manufacturer warranty and are matched systems. Believe the best you where going to get was 8.2 HSPF and 14 SEER. But certainly it’s a new system. That was there way out as they could not come up with that magic number 14.5 SEER and the 8.5-9.5 HSPF.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 12-10-2019 at 11:24 AM.

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