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  1. #1
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    Heatpump replacement brands.

    Hello everyone, this my first message today!

    I need to replace my heat pump and I started contacting companies about it.. but there are so many models available.

    It's in a early process now but I would like to check with you guys if the suggested products in my upcoming quotes are reliable and durable (assuming a quality installation). Ill get various machines and prices.. perhaps some machines will be better then others.

    ***

    We have a dual energy system in Quebec Canada (close to Montreal, very cold during winter) that is currently, a dead 24000 BTU >22 years old Turcotte Heatpump, 2.5 tons (I think) with a oil furnace. The project is to keep the oil furnace, replace the pump, the pipes and the serpentine inside.

    So far, we discussed with 1 person who suggested a Comfortmaker CSH6 2.5 tons as the replacement heatpump, are these durable and reliable parts if well installed? Like 20 years of life with regular maintenance?

    I don't have the quotation yet.. perhaps there will be a new thermostat and control with that.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    Dover, DE
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    The only thing that would sway me to a certain brand is if demand defrost is available.
    Anything else, focus more on proper sizing and installation. Installs are done wrong more then they are done right.
    There is no such thing as a better brand once the unit is in and running.
    Read here-

    https://www.angieslist.com/articles/...vac-brands.htm
    I havent failed. Ive just found 10,000 ways that wont work. - Thomas Edison

    Its not whether you get knocked down, its whether you get up. - Vince Lombardi

    "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics" - Homer Simpson

    Local 486 Instructor & Service Technician

  3. #3
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    Nov 2019
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    Thread Starter
    Thanks Rider77

    I'll focus on getting a quality installation in my discussions, of course. What exactly is the most common error (or errors) I should talk about and look for especially?

    A wild guess, scrap inside the piping during installation?

    What exactly is Demand defrost.. ? I'll do some searches on that tonight... must be related to intelligent defrosting.. do you have a specific model of machine that has that option built in?

    The exact angieslist link is not working.

  4. #4
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    Jun 2014
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    Must be something on your end for the link, it seems ok to me.
    Demand defrost will only send the heat pump into defrost when needed. As opposed to simple timers on others that will defrost the machine at 30/60/90 minutes of operation.

    Common mistakes-
    Oversized equipment
    Contamination due to brazing techniques (no nitrogen flow)
    Undersized duct
    Poor piping techniques
    Poor pressure leak check
    Insufficient evacuation
    Incorrect charging
    Incorrect airflow, sometimes due to the above listed duct issue
    Poor or even lack of equipment commissioning once the installation is done
    I havent failed. Ive just found 10,000 ways that wont work. - Thomas Edison

    Its not whether you get knocked down, its whether you get up. - Vince Lombardi

    "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics" - Homer Simpson

    Local 486 Instructor & Service Technician

  5. #5
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    Nov 2019
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    Thread Starter
    Wow ok that's quite a list, I can't make sure by myself the installer will follows any of this! but at least I know more about common mistakes, it's a matter of finding a guy with a good reputation.

    I found the Angieslist link on Startpage and read it, it was an interesting article, I now fully appreciate the importance of a quality installation.

    Then I looked up the comfortmaker CH6 specification resume, they talk about Quiet Shift defrost in the specifications but it's unclear if Quiet Shift defrost is in fact some sort of demand defrost.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Indianapolis, IN, USA
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    I don't thnk ICP uses demand defrost anymore. Quiet Shift shuts the compressor down at defrost time to reduce the big WOOSH when the reversinig valve switches in & out of cool mode.

    Demand defrost is a method of defrost control that defrosts only when needed. It has coil & ambient sensors and logic in the board determines if the coil is frosted. Most use a timer and thermostat. If the coil is below freezing for the length the timer is set for, it defrosts. Bad thing is, in cold dry weather defrosts are rarely needed so you are constantly defrosting every 60-90 minutes. A demand board wouldn't do that.

  7. #7
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    Nov 2019
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    Thread Starter
    Ah ok it's Quiet shift is something else.. But I think my old heatpump has demand defrost, i'll investigate that tonight.

    Thanks for the explanation on Demand Defrost BaldLoonie.

    I guess such a device will save quite a bit of energy by not cooling the inside for defrosting, for nothing?

  8. #8
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    It can be wired to bring on the auxiliary heat, in your case that would be the oil burner, during defrost.
    But you can see where demand defrost would save not only in unnecessary defrost cycle use, but in fuel consumption with your furnace. Even a little bit of fuel is multiplied by however many defrosts you average per day.
    I havent failed. Ive just found 10,000 ways that wont work. - Thomas Edison

    Its not whether you get knocked down, its whether you get up. - Vince Lombardi

    "In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics" - Homer Simpson

    Local 486 Instructor & Service Technician

  9. #9
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    Jan 2014
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    Says the CSH6 is a 16 SEER system ( depending on indoor coil used ) doubt you will get that magic number without a improved furnace. So if your stuck on a 16 SEER unit, ask them to prove it with a AHRI number.

    Ask them for something like this to prove your getting a 16 SEER rated system, as guessing that’s what your under the impression your paying for.

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...xrZvXFRuZteL4K

    If you plan on keeping your furnace for years to come you may want to consider a 14-15 SEER unit, save some money and it will be easier to prove SEER and EER HSPF ratings.

    Do you have rebates in Quebec? As if you do a 16 SEER and a minimum HSPF may do it. Did the bidding Contractors mention them?

    I personally like the time/temperature defrost myself, easier to troubleshoot, simpler design IMO costing less in a future service call, again IMO. Parts replacement probably would be cheaper also, again IMO. Quiet shift is a nice feature they added to the time/temperature defrost.

    Residing in Quebec, you do not have to register your equipment of choose to receive the manufacturers maximum warranty ( along with California)

    Lastly, with a oil furnace, need to be aware of the indoor coil height above the furnace itself. At least one brand you need to change out the ID coil drain pan to a high temperature drain pan as oil runs hotter than a gas furnace.

  10. #10
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    Nov 2019
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    Thread Starter
    Sorry for the delay,

    Rider77, looks like a wise idea.

    Bazooka Joey's: Thanks for the certificate example, i'll talk about that, good knowledge I did not even think about asking to get a 16 SEER certification (or whatever the number of the SEER really).. We should keep the furnace frankly, it's still in good condition and the heat is very good.. it's a bit expensive for the oil but very comfortable and effective during winter.

    I am not sure what 14, 15, or 16 SEER means yet.. I tried to read a bit about that but I didn't understand too well.. and didn't received any quotes yet... I don't think anything is going to move very much before the holidays.. we will see.

    What is Quiet Shift exactly?

    ***

    In 2015 I took some measurements of the Furnace area and the actual space occupied by the coil, I was told there is not too much space in height over the furnace and the high duct so I don't know about the temperature situation, but I keep the high temperature drain pan in minde. Bellow are the measurements if you want to have a look.

    I can't publish them until I have sent 7 messages, I'll publish it later. The available space is 23" high, then the square base of the coil is is 20 1/2" x 22".

  11. #11
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    Nov 2019
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    Thread Starter
    The HSPF rating must be more important then SEER, for us.. The last heatpump.. cooled the house like crazy and easily.. but it always struggled for heating during Autumn.. We had much more then enough cooling but not enough heating.

    That's definitive..

    The first technician told me the CSH6 should have around 9.5 and 10.5 HSPF. But yet again.. I am clueless if it's going to outperform the current machine in heating.

  12. #12
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    Ask your local utility company if they offer rebates, or region. With a Heat Pump, there usually is a minimum SEER and HSPF threshold that needs to be meet, and have a AHRI number which proves matching systems are being installed in order to qualify for rebates.

    In regards to the Tech. telling you the model CSH6 you mentioned has a HSPF around 9.5-10.5 ask him to prove it, as with a older furnace chances of even getting 16 SEER ( AHRI number ) will be slim, to none IMO as that number depends on ID selection.

    During defrost, when its ready to come out of defrost, with Quiet Shift the compressor shuts off, the OD fan starts ( to help bring the refrigerant pressures lower ) then after a predetermined amount of time the Reversing Valve shifts, then the compressor restarts. It helps cut down on that noise that it makes when it comes out of defrost.

    Demand defrost is nice, my opinion is as you have a Hybrid system, and have the oil furnace come on at a certain OD temperature once your HP gets less efficient, I don’t think IMO it’s a bad idea to consider a time/temperature defrost again that’s IMO. If you had a HP that never shuts off ( non Hybrid set up ) and bounces on the HP as 1st stage heat then electric heat as 2nd stage, then I would say lean towards a demand defrost system.

    From Armstrong Air

    Quiet Shift Technology Allows heat pumps to enter defrost mode without excessive noise. Since refrigerant pressure is allowed to equalize before the switch.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-21-2019 at 09:58 PM.

  13. #13
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    Jan 2014
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    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Search...2&ProgramId=69

    Check yourself add a partial model number of OD unit such as CSH630 which is the 2.5 ton your referencing. Do not need to add a brand name. Should work in either UC and lower case.

    Under ID fan section add EA only, shows that’s the only upflow A coil that’s matched and it only gives 14 SEER on that up to 16 SEER OD unit. The EN is a N coil and is not a matching system.

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...GTwmLv3loBvwEW

    This is a 21” wide upflow cased coil, if your furnace is 21” wide.

    If your furnace is 17” wide then this is the match.

    https://www.ahridirectory.org/Home/D...WJ9HihqNQR337q

    As you can see your HSPF is below the Tech. 9.5-10.5 talking points.

    Bottom line is if you want a 16 SEER unit and your under the impression your getting one ( on paper, not really world numbers thou ) and paying for one that OD unit will not get you that with your furnace. If you do not care then that’s another story. Those are examples for a upflow generic furnaces.
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-21-2019 at 11:07 PM.

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