Human Error in Hvac

[BNME8EZ]

Human error or human knowledge? I can't say as I see a lot of human error, some but not a lot. I see more situations where people don't know any better, they haven't been taught correctly, never been told the why it is better to do this than that, etc. It is easy to look at a ductulator and see that this size duct will move X CFM, it is a different thing to then look at all the fitting and find out that instead of 100EF the system has 750EF. All of a sudden the duct that should work doesn't for lack of better fittings. Charging is the same. The suction line needs to be cold but they lack the understanding that adding refrigerant can be just as detrimental as too little. Somewhere they loose sight that more refrigerant means higher pressure which translates to a warmer coil/less cooling. They may know to check SH/SC but never go the why and how to apply it.

Some of this I chalk up to human greed. Training is expensive and proper technique takes time which costs money. In the race to the bottom both of these become an anchor. Add to that the change in attitude about work and you have a disaster. My generation lived to work the latest work to live. I am not saying either is right but my generation was/is more apt to look for knowledge on their own time where the latest want personal time to be theirs and not a benefit to their boss such as learning at home. Again not saying either is right just different points of view.

The only answer is pride in ones work which has to come from within and be supported from without. There is no dollar amount that will give you pride in what you do. There is a dollar amount that will give you a reason to get up to go to work but the pride has to come from within. I feel it is this pride that makes the difference between a good tech and a bad one. A boss will holler at a good tech till he is hoarse and that tech will still take the time to get the job done right because pride will let him do nothing less. A boss yells at a bad tech once and the tech will do as the boss asks because it doesn't matter to him, just keep the boss happy.

[hvacker]

I've probably known 10 great techs in almost 50 years. Half the rest might have been challenged figure out most difficult problems and the rest might have had a brain wave.

If schooling isn't the starting point with a tech they won't be able to build on new information. They can't process it. How do you explain a PT chart to someone who can't even spell it?
In town there is a company that pays the techs to go to school and if they complete they get a check. Last I heard it was $25K. I don't know if this works but it might.
The rest of the stuff that makes a tech is hard to teach except by example.

[Olivero]

Considering I learned this trade without going to school and mostly without someone else teaching me until I was quite a ways into it AS well as being of the "newer" generation, I can say that the only reason I love HVAC/R is because of the technical aspects and the fact that it requires brains to do it properly.

I started this kind of work when I was 17 and have been doing it since, learned how to weld and fabricate, learned plumbing, copper pipe, gas piping, burner controls, kitchen equipment, electrical work, and then HVAC and I like HVAC over all of it just because I feel it's more challenging than any other and it keeps me interested.

I tend to get really super interested in something, learn about it, read about it, do it, get better, etc. until I feel like I hit a wall and I can't really progress from there at the same rate, then I pick up another subject and repeat it, I think if I wasn't learning something all the time, I would go crazy.

Being 23 I feel that's probably true for a lot of people out there, maybe not though, I work with other guys close to my age and we are kind of in the same boat, we all want to BE interested and be better and learn more and understand what's going on.

that's what drives me to learn and get better.

[hvacker]

Considering I learned this trade without going to school and mostly without someone else teaching me until I was quite a ways into it AS well as being of the "newer" generation, I can say that the only reason I love HVAC/R is because of the technical aspects and the fact that it requires brains to do it properly.

I started this kind of work when I was 17 and have been doing it since, learned how to weld and fabricate, learned plumbing, copper pipe, gas piping, burner controls, kitchen equipment, electrical work, and then HVAC and I like HVAC over all of it just because I feel it's more challenging than any other and it keeps me interested.

I tend to get really super interested in something, learn about it, read about it, do it, get better, etc. until I feel like I hit a wall and I can't really progress from there at the same rate, then I pick up another subject and repeat it, I think if I wasn't learning something all the time, I would go crazy.

Being 23 I feel that's probably true for a lot of people out there, maybe not though, I work with other guys close to my age and we are kind of in the same boat, we all want to BE interested and be better and learn more and understand what's going on.

that's what drives me to learn and get better.

Your the exception. Tech head. The industry has a problem attracting people that can function at the necessary level. They go elsewhere.
I have posted this analogy before but maybe it needs repeating. I'm not an athlete as in being really good at say shooting hoops. I could practice daily but still would be just ordinary. I might improve but it would not be what I should do.
Too many techs are not doing what they should because they lack aptitude for the job. Like a natural athlete a natural tech is just really good at what they do. Anyone else just messes up the job.

[timebuilder]

...and how do we get the necessary people into the industry who actually can do the work once we hang up out gauge sets?

We have to offer them more money, so that this career is a good choice next to being in an office (or, Mom's basement) and writing code.

[BBeerme]

The problem here is that our youth does not have the chance to find out if they are natural mechanics or not. Used to be we had to work on our autos; you rarely see our youth working on their own car. I could cite other examples in this area.

But the more important other problem is twofold. First is the smarty phones that allow them to sit in their bedroom and get satisfaction from communicating with others. Secondly, is the mass advertising by higher education, beginning in the 1970's, that you are worthless if you do not get higher education.

Your the exception. Tech head. The industry has a problem attracting people that can function at the necessary level. They go elsewhere.
I have posted this analogy before but maybe it needs repeating. I'm not an athlete as in being really good at say shooting hoops. I could practice daily but still would be just ordinary. I might improve but it would not be what I should do.
Too many techs are not doing what they should because they lack aptitude for the job. Like a natural athlete a natural tech is just really good at what they do. Anyone else just messes up the job.

[hvacker]

...and how do we get the necessary people into the industry who actually can do the work once we hang up out gauge sets?

We have to offer them more money, so that this career is a good choice next to being in an office (or, Mom's basement) and writing code.

I know money might be a first attraction but the honey moon wears off.
A code writer might be a good candidate if they want to get out of the basement because they have learned to solve problems.

I never knew how some shops that don't train and don't pay well, manage to fix things. If they do.
I wish I had gauges that tell me all the stuff they do today. Maybe it's cheaper than training.
I know the industry has to get the idea out of their head that anyone can do this work well. I worked for 3 shops before and none asked me anything that would have indicated I could do the work. "Hears your calls. There's your truck. Payday's on Friday.

[timebuilder]

I think people are missing my point.

If they don't offer really good money, there is NO reason to be doing this in place of other career paths.

Parents and guidance counselors are happy to push careers where the kid can comfortably retire at 60 and want for nothing. Currently, that is not typical in our field.

We, as an industry, have to compete. The conditions will not get better, so the pay and benefits MUST get better, unless you can send out R2D2 to talk to the unit, and have another droid fix the system. We are another 50 years from that point. Until then, we have to compete with the other potential careers for the same group of kids.

[pageyjim]

I think people are missing my point.

If they don't offer really good money, there is NO reason to be doing this in place of other career paths.

Parents and guidance counselors are happy to push careers where the kid can comfortably retire at 60 and want for nothing. Currently, that is not typical in our field.

We, as an industry, have to compete. The conditions will not get better, so the pay and benefits MUST get better, unless you can send out R2D2 to talk to the unit, and have another droid fix the system. We are another 50 years from that point. Until then, we have to compete with the other potential careers for the same group of kids.

You are right in that would draw more qualified people into the trade and improve the image of the trade along with supplying people with better service but I don't see it happening more than the general growth in income we are already seeing. HVAC businesses are profitable now and very healthy in general the way things are. I don't see a shortage of people coming into the trade. Many companies are more than happy with sales techs and a couple others who know the trade better and are actually good techs.

[Olivero]

I do agree with the pay being more potentially attracting more people.

And it is true, unfortunately a lot of the youngin's are starting out gaming in a young age where they naturally lean more towards computers and technology, that's how I got into computers and programming.

Nothing wrong with gaming but it tends to keep you in the field of computers but it does tend to steer your mind in the right direction of thinking a lot, believe it or not it helps with reflexes and troubleshooting skills, figuring out how to do things and solve problems.

I then tried mechanical work and realized I liked it better, but I had to get a chance to try it, and I'm glad I did.

[timebuilder]

I was programming in Fortran in 1968. I had first assembled components to build an analog computer in 1964. I continued with electronics, and built several Heathkit products, and I had naturally gravitated into hot rodding as a result of the logic of electromechanical systems..... which is why, although I am challenged by this business, I am never bested by it.

Now here's the issue:

guys like you are going to be one in 10,000 who decide that they like coming out into the field better than sitting in Mom's basement and playing Fortnite.

That is our issue.

If they can stay there and make a middle-class income and never have to get cold.... never have to get hot.... never have to lift a heavy object, and never have to get dirty..... and are never confronted with something which might confound them because of a lack of experience...... we are not going to get them to do this job unless we offer them something that they're not already getting...... and the only thing that we can offer that's going to be better..... and that, my friends...is compensation.

[pageyjim]

Business owners that I have talked to say there are plenty of sales techs along with plenty of seasoned top technicians. What they would like to see are more seasoned technicians that have the skills to educate people and upsell their products and services. My observations would agree with that 100%. It is just as hard to get a seasoned technician to realize the value of educating and upselling as it is to train a good technician from scratch.
A lot of technicians even seasoned ones don't seem to know how to be profitable for their companies and still serve the customer.

[timebuilder]

Things must be very different in your area.

I hardly ever run into a seasoned technician. Most of them stopped working in their 40s because of knee problems from climbing a ladder..... and the guys who are good at residential never, ever, go on a roof.

[Olivero]

I was programming in Fortran in 1968. I had first assembled components to build an analog computer in 1964. I continued with electronics, and built several Heathkit products, and I had naturally gravitated into hot rodding as a result of the logic of electromechanical systems..... which is why, although I am challenged by this business, I am never bested by it.

Now here's the issue:

guys like you are going to be one in 10,000 who decide that they like coming out into the field better than sitting in Mom's basement and playing Fortnite.

That is our issue.

If they can stay there and make a middle-class income and never have to get cold.... never have to get hot.... never have to lift a heavy object, and never have to get dirty..... and are never confronted with something which might confound them because of a lack of experience...... we are not going to get them to do this job unless we offer them something that they're not already getting...... and the only thing that we can offer that's going to be better..... and that, my friends...is compensation.

Very true, I agree with that.

[pageyjim]

Things must be very different in your area.

I hardly ever run into a seasoned technician. Most of them stopped working in their 40s because of knee problems from climbing a ladder..... and the guys who are good at residential never, ever, go on a roof.

When I bring up the health hazards of the trade like back and knee problems you seem to pooh-pooh it and talk about DVT which is easily avoidable if one is aware. So are back and knee issues a problem in our trade or not?

If back and knee problems are as bad as you say (In this post at least.) then why would parents encourage their children to get into this trade?

As far as our trade I can speak from experience about DE, CA, NY and NJ. I was in your area also and wouldn't be surprised to see people having a harder time getting good help in general.

[timebuilder]

I'm talking about older men.....not younger men who need to be attracted into the trade.

Knee and back problems are common to every job where outside work is being performed....so we are on and even platform with all of the other trades.

For instance.... I don't know a construction electrician who does not go up and down ladders all the time. I don't know of anybody who does water and sewer hookups who is not getting in and out of a trench all the time and handling pipe, and bending over and putting it together.

My point is: if you want to get kids out of the basement you're going to have to offer compensation that overcomes all of these negatives. The number one cause of death is being alive.

We need to have these people coming into the trade....so that means we're going to have to offer the brighter kids who can actually assimilate the skills more money to come in, because we cannot hire and bring in enough foreign workers to do this job.

Remember about 25 years ago when everybody was screaming that there weren't enough nurses? As if by magic, the compensation for nurses all across United States increased in order to get mainly young women and a few young men to go into nursing, and today and a nurse anesthetist with a 4-year BSN in nursing can make well over $100,000 a year.

Now we probably can't offer $100,000 a year but we better be ready to offer $75,000.....or none of those kids in those basements are ever going to come outside.

[pageyjim]

I'm talking about older men.....not younger men who need to be attracted into the trade.

Knee and back problems are common to every job where outside work is being performed....so we are on and even platform with all of the other trades.

For instance.... I don't know a construction electrician who does not go up and down ladders all the time. I don't know of anybody who does water and sewer hookups who is not getting in and out of a trench all the time and handling pipe, and bending over and putting it together.

My point is: if you want to get kids out of the basement you're going to have to offer compensation that overcomes all of these negatives. The number one cause of death is being alive.

We need to have these people coming into the trade....so that means we're going to have to offer the brighter kids who can actually assimilate the skills more money to come in, because we cannot hire and bring in enough foreign workers to do this job.

Remember about 25 years ago when everybody was screaming that there weren't enough nurses? As if by magic, the compensation for nurses all across United States increased in order to get mainly young women and a few young men to go into nursing, and today and a nurse anesthetist with a 4-year BSN in nursing can make well over $100,000 a year.

Now we probably can't offer $100,000 a year but we better be ready to offer $75,000.....or none of those kids in those basements are ever going to come outside.

Electricians or carpenters in general do not suffer from the same back and knee problems as we do.

We are not nurses or pilots where if there weren't enough qualified people the public would demand it and become even a political matter.

With the talk concentrating on ladders I wonder if you have foot problems. It is a lot more than ladders that causes the health problems in this trade

[timebuilder]

Oh I do have foot pain but it has nothing to do with ladders.

And I don't really conceive of the world in a manner where I perceive the need for a public outcry requiring government intervention.

This will only happen when private employers come to the realization that they can't get by hiring these Joeys whose previous job experience included asking the question, "would you like fries with that?"

Neither pilots nor nurses received better pay because of any legislative, political, or administrative actions.

They received better pay because people were not going to go into the fields unless the pay improved. So yes....this is exactly like those examples.

In fact, after deregulation in the late 1970s, pilot pay stayed flat for the rest of that generation.

I'll give you the bottom line so that we can not waste both of our time with additional posts.

Quality people, who do quality work, require quality compensation.

[pageyjim]

Oh I do have foot pain but it has nothing to do with ladders.

And I don't really conceive of the world in a manner where I perceive the need for a public outcry requiring government intervention.

This will only happen when private employers come to the realization that they can't get by hiring these Joeys whose previous job experience included asking the question, "would you like fries with that?"

I'll give you the bottom line so that we can not waste both of our time with additional posts.

Quality people, who do quality work, require quality compensation.

There will never be a public outcry for better trained HVAC techs like there would be for nurses and pilots. For example there are only 18 major carriers and if one had poor pilots it would be exploited easily by the others and there is govt regulation there as there is with nurses. I used them as examples because you did.

Companies in our trade are prospering and making money doing business just as they are with many people wanting a job in this trade. Don't hold your breath in expecting general large wage jumps that aren't incentive based.

[hvacker]

I've always been Union and they pay well form the beginning of an apprenticeship. It seems the same performance issues persist.
There is a generational issue or so it seems. I know a geographical issue are there also but I don't understand it well. By that I am referring to the mananasyndrome in the SW.

I once knew a plumbing super that couldn't help himself when say, driving past a hole some company had dug. He had to stop and look in the hole.
I think he just loved the idea of building something. Construction can be an attraction by itself. I know I get excited being around construction. It feels like home.
The techs have a kind of different world.

I still have a Heath-kit auto oscilloscope. I used it back when a person could analyze problems w/o a computer. Observe spark plug firing, set dwell, all that stuff.