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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/12...tion-Sheet.pdf

    If you registered your system initially you get the 10/10 compressor and parts warranty on the OD section. So you should have give or take one year left.

    BTW if your interested in knowing if the Contractor installed AHRI matched systems page 57 gives the ratings in HSPF, SEER, EER for matched systems.

    Hopefully they registered the coil they changed out, or you can do it yourself as you probably will get a 10 year warranty on it?

    Don’t believe Goodman warranty follows the original start up date and you get just one year. ( you mention install date of 2010 ) like some manufacturers. Could be wrong thou?
    Yes, I registered the unit and I have the 10 year warranty on parts which expires in February of 2020 and the compressor has a lifetime warranty. I have copies of the warranty registration forms. I checked the compressor and its a Copeland Scroll ZR36K3-PFV-230 and it using mineral oil. Poodle Head Mikey in an above comment said that these concerns about 407c and mineral oil have been proven false. Also, mgenius33 said that since the compressor has a lifetime warranty its not a big issue, because I believe the new upgraded replacement compressor comes with the POE oil. If it doesn't break great and if it does, than I just get a brand new compressor with POE oil. I am trying to keep this unit running as long as I can, because I don't have thousands of dollars to upgrade the whole system.

  2. #28
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    R-407C is not a solvent for mineral oil. So there were originally concerns for oil return. And maybe if the piping was done strictly to RSES standards and the pressure drops and line velocities were as low as they should be - MAYBE there could be an issue. Although I have never found one - even on freezer projects that I have piped and sized conservatively (properly <g>).

    But manufacturers, especially in Comfort Cooling applications, undersize everything they can - so the line velocities and the resulting turbulence, are always too high. With the result that simple turbulence serves to mechanically return the mineral oil. And also; adding a few ounces of POE or Supco 88 also provides adequate oil return - in a 'belt & suspenders' approach.

    There are a lot of things said and then never altered in the face of new evidence. Hell; people are still telling me that domestic refrigerators cannot be laid on their sides for transport - something which hasn't been true since before WWII ! <g>

    So yes; I imagine that you can find disagreement on the subject if you want. <g>

    PHM
    --------


    Quote Originally Posted by Danny1976 View Post
    Is there disagreement on this subject of mixing 407C with mineral oil in the HVAC Community? Like Poodle Head Mikey mention on the post above that it has been proven false... if I read his post correctly on 407C and mineral oil becoming a sludge and oil not coming back to the compressor?
    PHM
    --------
    The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodle Head Mikey View Post
    R-407C is not a solvent for mineral oil. So there were originally concerns for oil return. And maybe if the piping was done strictly to RSES standards and the pressure drops and line velocities were as low as they should be - MAYBE there could be an issue. Although I have never found one - even on freezer projects that I have piped and sized conservatively (properly <g>).

    But manufacturers, especially in Comfort Cooling applications, undersize everything they can - so the line velocities and the resulting turbulence, are always too high. With the result that simple turbulence serves to mechanically return the mineral oil. And also; adding a few ounces of POE or Supco 88 also provides adequate oil return - in a 'belt & suspenders' approach.

    There are a lot of things said and then never altered in the face of new evidence. Hell; people are still telling me that domestic refrigerators cannot be laid on their sides for transport - something which hasn't been true since before WWII ! <g>

    So yes; I imagine that you can find disagreement on the subject if you want. <g>

    PHM
    --------
    Thank you Poodle Head Mikey.... I really appreciate your info and puts me at ease that the unit will be OK. I do appreciate your time here and like you say, it takes patience answering people like me who are ignorant the HVAC workings. Truly appreciated.

  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny1976 View Post
    Yes, I registered the unit and I have the 10 year warranty on parts which expires in February of 2020 and the compressor has a lifetime warranty. I have copies of the warranty registration forms. I checked the compressor and its a Copeland Scroll ZR36K3-PFV-230 and it using mineral oil. Poodle Head Mikey in an above comment said that these concerns about 407c and mineral oil have been proven false. Also, mgenius33 said that since the compressor has a lifetime warranty its not a big issue, because I believe the new upgraded replacement compressor comes with the POE oil. If it doesn't break great and if it does, than I just get a brand new compressor with POE oil. I am trying to keep this unit running as long as I can, because I don't have thousands of dollars to upgrade the whole system.
    Did not know that model gave the 99 year or limited lifetime warranty ( to original registered owner ) without purchasing a extended compressor warranty as the site that was given says the GSH has a 10/10 once registered and dated 2008. Unless you purchased one? 13 SEER unit even 9 years ago was not a high tier model.

    It’s not that easy, price wise just changing the compressor ( warranty work ) and paying for labor only, depending on if the compressor has a acidic condition as an example, that’s much more time consuming and even changing the accumulator or cleaning it would not be out of the question, coming back at a later date and checking with a acid test kit, adding to the bill, new drier, new refrigerant, nitrogen use, new compressor contactor, capacitor, etc. etc. could get quite expensive.

    May want to download information about the R407 refrigerant ( and the proof your compressor has mineral base oil ) is not mixable and approach the company and explain your not satisfied with what they did. If they say there is not a problem with R407 with mineral oil, have them show you where it says that. See what they will offer.

    If they are a reputable company they should do right by you at no cost to you, IMO
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 11-17-2019 at 04:26 PM.

  5. #31
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    Poodle Head knows much more about this than I do, in general, lol.

    But I would also be wary of having refrigerant with one oil and a comp with another, there's a reason they aren't the same and I don't think mixing them will do you any favors, thought it may not be a big problem, I don't think it's recommended.

    If you get a new compressor for free, that's great, but I doubt the labor is warrantied and that is normally not cheap as a compressor takes a bit of time to put in correctly.

    Did the tech pressure test in any of this? Did he ever find the leak?

    "Tech came out to check the unit. Used a electronic tool to find gas leaks, but could not detect it. He said it may be because there is not enough pressure in the unit. He also believes there could be an obstruction in the lines. Since the Evap Coils are still under warranty... He recommended changing the Evap coils, replacing the dryer filter, removing the R22, flushing the lines and replacing it with the 407C refrigerant."

    That sounds like absolute bogus to me, why on earth would you go and replace an evap coil just because? All of this "Believes" or "may be because" doesn't work and you shouldn't accept it, it's called being lazy, I used to do it and then I manned up and did my job instead.

    If there's a restriction HE CAN SEE IT WITH HIS GAUGES. That's why we have them, otherwise why not just guess our way through everything? It COULD be because of a lot of things but the TOOLS are there to make us ABLE to find the right PROBLEM.

    For gods, sake, if there's not enough pressure in it PUT SOME NITRO IN IT!!!

    For every problem he told you, I can think of a way to solve it, sounds like a hack or a new tech that doesn't know any better.

    What he should've done is pressure tested it (which he already did earlier and proved there was a leak) then he should've found the leak and fixed it, put some fresh R22 in it or 407C or whatever you wanted and called it good.

    But no, let's install new a new evaporator coil and not solve the original problem I came here to solve and charge the customer for that, then when it leaks out again I can come back and do it all over again.

    Let me just spell it out.

    Unit's low on charge so I can't find it, "I THINK it's low". (Tech could've put his gauges on it and seen IF it was low and IF it was low, put nitro in it with a trace of refrigerant and looked for it)

    There's a restriction somewhere, (Tech could've put his gauges on it and he would've SEEN if there was a restriction somewhere because there would be an oddity in the readings that he should recognize as abnormal)

    So you realize, at this very point you just paid someone to solve a problem that didn't exist and left your original problem un-handled right?

    It could take a year or so before it leaks out enough to where you'll see it or more accurately, feel it, IF it's a small leak.

    That's my 2 cents.

  6. #32
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    Note:
    Your unit may have HAD a lifetime warranty.

    All units replaced under the lifetime warranty have a 3 page warranty form.
    All units and compressors getting replaced through the lifetime warranty are sent back for testing.

    There’s no way Goodman’s letting a compressor through that had 407c in it.
    "Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."

    "Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."

    "Just get it done son."

    Dad adjusted

  7. #33
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    I appreciate PHM's experience and input about R407c; it's more extensive than mine. The only time we use R407c is with refrigeration systems that have POE oil, not a/c systems since there are alternative refrigerants as I mentioned.

    That being said, our opinions and experiences carry no weight with manufacturers; only their rules and guidelines do. IDK of a single manufacturer that approves the use of R407c with mineral oil. Google it yourself and see.
    Bob Boan


    ​You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacvegas View Post
    Note:

    There’s no way Goodman’s letting a compressor through that had 407c in it.
    Good point, that probably voided your warranty right there.

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivero View Post
    Good point, that probably voided your warranty right there.
    Doubt they would heck for the use of a different refrigerant.
    Contractor locator map

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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Doubt they would heck for the use of a different refrigerant.
    I mean, I wouldn't lie to the manufacturer and I would personally feel bad about not telling them that something else was in it, if I knew about it.

    They might check the oil in the compressor and I can imagine that the POE and Mineral mixing would leave some sort of indication that it wasn't all 1 oil.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivero View Post
    Poodle Head knows much more about this than I do, in general, lol.

    But I would also be wary of having refrigerant with one oil and a comp with another, there's a reason they aren't the same and I don't think mixing them will do you any favors, thought it may not be a big problem, I don't think it's recommended.

    If you get a new compressor for free, that's great, but I doubt the labor is warrantied and that is normally not cheap as a compressor takes a bit of time to put in correctly.

    Did the tech pressure test in any of this? Did he ever find the leak?

    "Tech came out to check the unit. Used a electronic tool to find gas leaks, but could not detect it. He said it may be because there is not enough pressure in the unit. He also believes there could be an obstruction in the lines. Since the Evap Coils are still under warranty... He recommended changing the Evap coils, replacing the dryer filter, removing the R22, flushing the lines and replacing it with the 407C refrigerant."

    That sounds like absolute bogus to me, why on earth would you go and replace an evap coil just because? All of this "Believes" or "may be because" doesn't work and you shouldn't accept it, it's called being lazy, I used to do it and then I manned up and did my job instead.

    If there's a restriction HE CAN SEE IT WITH HIS GAUGES. That's why we have them, otherwise why not just guess our way through everything? It COULD be because of a lot of things but the TOOLS are there to make us ABLE to find the right PROBLEM.

    For gods, sake, if there's not enough pressure in it PUT SOME NITRO IN IT!!!

    For every problem he told you, I can think of a way to solve it, sounds like a hack or a new tech that doesn't know any better.

    What he should've done is pressure tested it (which he already did earlier and proved there was a leak) then he should've found the leak and fixed it, put some fresh R22 in it or 407C or whatever you wanted and called it good.

    But no, let's install new a new evaporator coil and not solve the original problem I came here to solve and charge the customer for that, then when it leaks out again I can come back and do it all over again.

    Let me just spell it out.

    Unit's low on charge so I can't find it, "I THINK it's low". (Tech could've put his gauges on it and seen IF it was low and IF it was low, put nitro in it with a trace of refrigerant and looked for it)

    There's a restriction somewhere, (Tech could've put his gauges on it and he would've SEEN if there was a restriction somewhere because there would be an oddity in the readings that he should recognize as abnormal)

    So you realize, at this very point you just paid someone to solve a problem that didn't exist and left your original problem un-handled right?

    It could take a year or so before it leaks out enough to where you'll see it or more accurately, feel it, IF it's a small leak.

    That's my 2 cents.
    Thank you for your reply Olivero. I forgot to mention with all the things going on, that when he came back after the initial inspection.... I asked him to find the location of the leak in case there could be multiple leaks. He brought a better leak detector machine and found oil leaking from the side of the evap coils towards the bottom. After replacing the coils, he did a vacuum and it held. So vacuum was good and leak gone. He guessed the obstruction on the line, because I had mention that I had called another tech before, because of the liquid line being cold and it was vibrated and gurgled. Previous tech replaced dryer filter and reduced the vibration and gurgling noise. This tech did put the filter dryer this time where its recommended to be... close to the evap coils.

    I think he felt secure that the leak was at the evap coils and did not want to pump nitro. In overall on his first visit he didn't want to do much, but when he came out to swap the evap coils, he checked again and found the leak. The vacuum verified that not other leaks were there and he put the dryer by the evap coil, which has made the unit more quiet in the gurgling and vibrating sound on the liquid line. I guess the vibrating and gurgling sounds had to do with the dryer was so far away from the evap coil, since the lines run from the far side of the house to the attic of the 2nd story and down to the evap coils. I think the lines from the condenser to the Evap oils has to be at least 30ft in length.

  12. #38
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    Okay, that makes more sense but still,

    A vacuum is not a good way to test for leaks, it could be a small leak and he could be seeing a micron rise on his gauges and blamed it on something else, I've seen people do it and done it accidentally myself before. How long was the vacuum held for?

    Why didn't he pressure test after installing the evap coils? It's standard procedure to pressure test.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivero View Post
    Okay, that makes more sense but still,

    A vacuum is not a good way to test for leaks, it could be a small leak and he could be seeing a micron rise on his gauges and blamed it on something else, I've seen people do it and done it accidentally myself before. How long was the vacuum held for?

    Why didn't he pressure test after installing the evap coils? It's standard procedure to pressure test.
    To the question of how long did the vacuum held... I wasn't checking the time, but maybe 15-30 min. Why didn't he pressure test... I really don't know. We'll find out how long this unit last on 407C with mineral oil and if all the leaks where fixed. I spoke with him about the mineral oil and the 407C and he said the unit should be fine. He works for an A/C company and does side jobs. This a side job and so I paid less than a company price that has to pay employees, insurance and other stuff. I guess I will test how bad is 407c with mineral oil. Will update this post on how it goes.

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