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  1. #1
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    Jun 2010
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    06E compressor issue

    Just looking for something else to check......

    I have an 06E compressor 230v part winding start that was recently replaced (last week?). Apparently when it was installed and started up in ran/sounded fine. As of 3 days ago the customer reported a noise. Went to check the compressor and found that the noise happens on start up. When the first contactor pulls in the compressor hums. The second contactor pulls in and off she goes, runs fine. The sound they are complaining about is the loud hum. This system pumps down at shut down, so when the solenoids open the pressure creeps up to start the compressor. Not a lot of load. Two of the three heads have unloaders. Tried unloading both heads before starting, same result. The voltage is 238-240 across the 3 lines. The 1st contactor is wired to terminals 1-2-3, the second is wired to 7-8-9. Terminals 4-5-6 are jumped with a bar. Both contactors are new with the compressor.

    So, what I’m looking for is a reason that the compressor won’t start turning with the 1st winding. Again, once the 2nd kicks in it runs fine, so I know it’s not seized. The power leads are the same on both contactors, so it’s not a rotation thing, plus if it was, the issue would pop up when the 2nd kicked in. Checked the ohms of the windings, 1st is .9 ohms across 1-2-3, 2nd is .4 ohms across 7-8-9. The lag for the second contactor is controlled by the compressor timer which states 1sec +/-.5 sec. Which it is operating at.

    It appears electrically sound. Since it runs once at 100%, seems mechanically fine.

    For a little background, the compressor was replaced due to a broken piston. This an older split system. The previous company had done some work out in the system on leaks. When the new compressor was installed and started, a lot of oil returned back and needed to be removed. It appears that the previous company kept adding oil (4 empty gallon containers onsite). Looks like once they fixed the issue out in the system the oil came back and filled the compressor. The cylinders were full of oil upon original diagnosis.

    Again, the issue I am trying to solve is the loud hum when just the 1st winding is engaged. I look forward to any suggestions.

    Thanks




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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Medford, N.Y.
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    What is the amps on each contactor? I thought that a part wind start comp is supposed to act just like you described,minus a weird sound. There is a normal distinctive sound when this comp starts.
    Is the comp damaged from that slugging returning oil.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SouthEast NC ICW & Piedmont Foothills
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    1-why is the pressure "creeping up" once the solenoids open?
    2-just what kind of time delay between contactors pulling in?
    It`s better to be silent and thought the fool; than speak and remove all doubt.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    1,276
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    High torque part winding start motors often won't rotate until the second contactor pulls in.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    up in the hizzy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfintech72 View Post
    Just looking for something else to check......

    I have an 06E compressor 230v part winding start that was recently replaced (last week?). Apparently when it was installed and started up in ran/sounded fine. As of 3 days ago the customer reported a noise. Went to check the compressor and found that the noise happens on start up. When the first contactor pulls in the compressor hums. The second contactor pulls in and off she goes, runs fine. The sound they are complaining about is the loud hum. This system pumps down at shut down, so when the solenoids open the pressure creeps up to start the compressor. Not a lot of load. Two of the three heads have unloaders. Tried unloading both heads before starting, same result. The voltage is 238-240 across the 3 lines. The 1st contactor is wired to terminals 1-2-3, the second is wired to 7-8-9. Terminals 4-5-6 are jumped with a bar. Both contactors are new with the compressor.

    So, what I’m looking for is a reason that the compressor won’t start turning with the 1st winding. Again, once the 2nd kicks in it runs fine, so I know it’s not seized. The power leads are the same on both contactors, so it’s not a rotation thing, plus if it was, the issue would pop up when the 2nd kicked in. Checked the ohms of the windings, 1st is .9 ohms across 1-2-3, 2nd is .4 ohms across 7-8-9. The lag for the second contactor is controlled by the compressor timer which states 1sec +/-.5 sec. Which it is operating at.

    It appears electrically sound. Since it runs once at 100%, seems mechanically fine.

    For a little background, the compressor was replaced due to a broken piston. This an older split system. The previous company had done some work out in the system on leaks. When the new compressor was installed and started, a lot of oil returned back and needed to be removed. It appears that the previous company kept adding oil (4 empty gallon containers onsite). Looks like once they fixed the issue out in the system the oil came back and filled the compressor. The cylinders were full of oil upon original diagnosis.

    Again, the issue I am trying to solve is the loud hum when just the 1st winding is engaged. I look forward to any suggestions.

    Thanks




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Your readings are fine, I would try reversing the rotation (on both winding of course) and see what happens, I bet its a re-manufactured compressor and very likely defective !
    There is not better place for the working men than the union! 100% UA the only HVAC union!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Florida
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    25
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    do we know why the original compressor went out. might help lead us down a path of what is happening now.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    New Mexico
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    If the old compressor was not pumping well, leaving oil out in the system, it didn’t need a lot of torque to start spinning. The new compressor does, that’s why the noise is there . The motor is not spinning until the second set of windings kick in. You could shorten the time delay down to .3 seconds from the .5 you have now. That same compressor can be started across the line if the wires coming to the condenser are big enough. That noise is pretty normal. You can try an auxiliary contact on the first starter to bring in the second starter that split second still acts as a time delay. You cannot hear the noise then. Keep on top of the oil return so you don’t take out this compressor.


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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    East Side
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    I would try removing the delay first (as chev said). Take out the time delay and run the second contactor coil through an auxiliary relay in the first contactor.

    Sounds like the entire system is a mess. You’re gonna have to babysit that one, or you’re gonna lose the new compressor also.

    All that said, your compressor should start with the first contactor regardless of system issues. I am swaying towards a compressor problem also.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Dearborn MI
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    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    Your readings are fine, I would try reversing the rotation (on both winding of course) and see what happens, I bet its a re-manufactured compressor and very likely defective !
    I'm sorry, but this is just an ignorant thing to say.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    up in the hizzy
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    Quote Originally Posted by remanworld View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is just an ignorant thing to say.
    Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers but unlike you I work on the field and deal with poorly re-manufactured compressors all the time, junk straight out of the crate!
    There is not better place for the working men than the union! 100% UA the only HVAC union!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bay Area California
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    First thing I would do is measure the voltage drop at the compressor when it is trying to start the first winding, sounds like a classic low voltage on start.
    If you were a real tech, you'd solder a relay on that board and call it good to go.

    I do a triple evac with nitro to remove non condensables.

    I use 56% silver on everything except steel.

    Did you really need the " If you were a real tech " ??

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    VA/DC
    Posts
    265
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    Everything you just described is normal operation of a part start winding. The compressor isnt going to start with half the wingdings energized. I don't ever remember seeing a 06e pump before the second contactor kicked in.
    Part start is to reduce the inrush so you dont get a large power spike. If this commercial building gets charged their monthly rate by the maximum current you want it to start this way.

    The pressure creeping up when the liquid line solenoid is what should happen.

    I'm going to say that the building personal thinks they hear something different when they really don't. Its just a different pitch. or heavier hum due to the old compressor having other issues.

    https://climate.emerson.com/document...us-4268084.pdf

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Medford, N.Y.
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    Copeland has a 23 pg Technical Information article ,"Starting Methods and Unloaded Start For Semi-Hermetic Compressors" that mentions a Time Delay of 1 sec. (+-0.1 sec) in the Part Winding Start section,several times.

    Ref;D7.10.2/1106-0208/E ,,,Application Engineering Europe.

    It is a Good Read.

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