Any Chevy motor heads here? This one is kicking my butt -

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Billy is a genuine mechanical genius. I've always thought what a shame it is that he busts his ass working on cars and not refrigeration and so forth. He works at a truly blinding pace and can almost always beat flat-rate by half. And sometimes more. He makes about $80K working on Chryslers but he would set this world of ours on fire. Brilliant innovator and Chrysler sometimes re-write procedure based on what he comes up with.

So I'm going to wait until after Billy and The Red Brick visit before doing anything more in depth.

PHM
-----------

I would like a confirmation that there is compression in number one cylinder, and that everything still lines up when you get that characteristic "puff" as it reaches TDC.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

That's reminds me of a funny story -

Back when Chrysler was using that turbocharged I-4 engine is lots of vehicles there was quite a problem keeping head gaskets in them. I forget what the FR was but maybe 6 hours.

Billy did a couple and then came up with an alternate method which took a little under 2 hours. With some refinement he got it down to 45-50 minutes. After that he only wanted to do the head gaskets. The service manager was fine with it because he would sometimes do ten in a day by staying a little late. And there was Always a backlog sitting out in the parking lot.

Word got around and pretty soon other dealers were bringing theirs over to the dealership for Billy to do. Lots of them were under warranty and one day some investigators show up from Chrysler - looking for warranty claim fraud.

They go over all the paperwork and check all the VIN's and cold call some customers to see if they were happy after their head gasket was replaced. They all were and the investigators were somewhat mystified about just what could have been going on - how the dealership is getting away with it. Finally they call Billy in and ask him if he actually did all the work he had written up and been paid for.

Billy isn't wide but he is tall and solid. Big boxer hands too. So after he answers yes and the guy sneers and questions it Billy says: What part of yes I did all that work did you miss? I never cheated anybody in my whole life and if you think you are going to call me a liar and a cheat you're not going to be walking out of here.

Billy goes back to work and they leave. In a few days some other guys from corporate show up and want to see Billy change a head gasket. He is in the middle of one so he shuts the oil and goes to pull another, non-head gasket, ticket. They insist and he refuses. They start to threaten and Billy locks his tool boxes, goes out to his truck, and leaves. He calls and says: I'll send a flatbed tomorrow for my tools.

The service manager later promises to keep Corporate away from Billy and he comes back to work.

I know the story because the service manager was a friend of mine and I gave Billy the cake server and the brass flange wedges which became the keys to the procedure. <g>

What he was doing was not removing anything but the head bolts - then lifting the head enough to slide the gasket out. At first with screw drivers and then with my flange wedges. He used the long bladed cake server

I am calling it wrong: it wasn't A Server (the wedge shaped thing) - it was the long flexible blade that a bakery uses to frost cakes. A Froster? I don't know what they are called. <g>

So anyway he could eventually change a head gasket in 45 minutes - from getting the ticket and the keys to dropping them back off at the service window.

He never said what convinced him to tell Chrysler the details - but I have to suspect that it was a hefty financial inventive. Engineering was horrified and they forbid him to do it that way - or telling anyone else how to do it his way - it Had to be done by-the-book. The factory started checking on vehicle intake time/date and the customer return time/date to make sure.

So after that he would do a half dozen or more in a day and then the service manager would only call one customer per day to pick up their cars. <g>

[Fred Raud]

I would like to have a OBD diagnostics unit which displays to the level of seeing each injector fire and the length of time it's open. Each fire-signal from crankshaft position sensor and each deviation by the camshaft position sensor.

And then also: fuel trims, and O2 reads.

Can your $20. adapter do all that? If so; what the brand and model?

PHM
--------

No. You would need an Oscope for that. Pick and bitscope makes some nice ones or you can get a hand held like I have but not as accurate.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I don't think having the MAP sensor unplugged changes anything diagnostic-wise . . . . . does it? <g>

[itsiceman]

Did I miss the part about what happened to the ribs?

Still hope there might be a PHM book to read one day. Could probably sell a couple of runs just from guys around here

[mcr]

That's reminds me of a funny story -

Back when Chrysler was using that turbocharged I-4 engine is lots of vehicles there was quite a problem keeping head gaskets in them. I forget what the FR was but maybe 6 hours.

Billy did a couple and then came up with an alternate method which took a little under 2 hours. With some refinement he got it down to 45-50 minutes. After that he only wanted to do the head gaskets. The service manager was fine with it because he would sometimes do ten in a day by staying a little late. And there was Always a backlog sitting out in the parking lot.

Word got around and pretty soon other dealers were bringing theirs over to the dealership for Billy to do. Lots of them were under warranty and one day some investigators show up from Chrysler - looking for warranty claim fraud.

They go over all the paperwork and check all the VIN's and cold call some customers to see if they were happy after their head gasket was replaced. They all were and the investigators were somewhat mystified about just what could have been going on - how the dealership is getting away with it. Finally they call Billy in and ask him if he actually did all the work he had written up and been paid for.

Billy isn't wide but he is tall and solid. Big boxer hands too. So after he answers yes and the guy sneers and questions it Billy says: What part of yes I did all that work did you miss? I never cheated anybody in my whole life and if you think you are going to call me a liar and a cheat you're not going to be walking out of here.

Billy goes back to work and they leave. In a few days some other guys from corporate show up and want to see Billy change a head gasket. He is in the middle of one so he shuts the oil and goes to pull another, non-head gasket, ticket. They insist and he refuses. They start to threaten and Billy locks his tool boxes, goes out to his truck, and leaves. He calls and says: I'll send a flatbed tomorrow for my tools.

The service manager later promises to keep Corporate away from Billy and he comes back to work.

I know the story because the service manager was a friend of mine and I gave Billy the cake server and the brass flange wedges which became the keys to the procedure. <g>

What he was doing was not removing anything but the head bolts - then lifting the head enough to slide the gasket out. At first with screw drivers and then with my flange wedges. He used the long bladed cake server

I am calling it wrong: it wasn't A Server (the wedge shaped thing) - it was the long flexible blade that a bakery uses to frost cakes. A Froster? I don't know what they are called. <g>

So anyway he could eventually change a head gasket in 45 minutes - from getting the ticket and the keys to dropping them back off at the service window.

He never said what convinced him to tell Chrysler the details - but I have to suspect that it was a hefty financial inventive. Engineering was horrified and they forbid him to do it that way - or telling anyone else how to do it his way - it Had to be done by-the-book. The factory started checking on vehicle intake time/date and the customer return time/date to make sure.

So after that he would do a half dozen or more in a day and then the service manager would only call one customer per day to pick up their cars. <g>

I used to work on Chyslers back in the day of the 2.2 four banger head gasket woes. We did the " slip and slide" procedure all the time. No big deal. Until one car had a cracked head between the valves. That ended that. I was amazed how many cracked heads we found when we actually removed it.

[Fred Raud]

I don't think having the MAP sensor unplugged changes anything diagnostic-wise . . . . . does it? <g>

It will make it run like shit sometimes, depends on what is going on, but from what i see you arent running at all. If it doesn't see the map sensor it will fill in default values so should start. But if you have a lot of little things out of wack it could end up in a no run situation. I assume you have spark and fuel(again, haven't read the whole thread yet).

[BNME8EZ]

That's reminds me of a funny story -

Back when Chrysler was using that turbocharged I-4 engine is lots of vehicles there was quite a problem keeping head gaskets in them. I forget what the FR was but maybe 6 hours.

Billy did a couple and then came up with an alternate method which took a little under 2 hours. With some refinement he got it down to 45-50 minutes. After that he only wanted to do the head gaskets. The service manager was fine with it because he would sometimes do ten in a day by staying a little late. And there was Always a backlog sitting out in the parking lot.

Word got around and pretty soon other dealers were bringing theirs over to the dealership for Billy to do. Lots of them were under warranty and one day some investigators show up from Chrysler - looking for warranty claim fraud.

They go over all the paperwork and check all the VIN's and cold call some customers to see if they were happy after their head gasket was replaced. They all were and the investigators were somewhat mystified about just what could have been going on - how the dealership is getting away with it. Finally they call Billy in and ask him if he actually did all the work he had written up and been paid for.

Billy isn't wide but he is tall and solid. Big boxer hands too. So after he answers yes and the guy sneers and questions it Billy says: What part of yes I did all that work did you miss? I never cheated anybody in my whole life and if you think you are going to call me a liar and a cheat you're not going to be walking out of here.

Billy goes back to work and they leave. In a few days some other guys from corporate show up and want to see Billy change a head gasket. He is in the middle of one so he shuts the oil and goes to pull another, non-head gasket, ticket. They insist and he refuses. They start to threaten and Billy locks his tool boxes, goes out to his truck, and leaves. He calls and says: I'll send a flatbed tomorrow for my tools.

The service manager later promises to keep Corporate away from Billy and he comes back to work.

I know the story because the service manager was a friend of mine and I gave Billy the cake server and the brass flange wedges which became the keys to the procedure. <g>

What he was doing was not removing anything but the head bolts - then lifting the head enough to slide the gasket out. At first with screw drivers and then with my flange wedges. He used the long bladed cake server

I am calling it wrong: it wasn't A Server (the wedge shaped thing) - it was the long flexible blade that a bakery uses to frost cakes. A Froster? I don't know what they are called. <g>

So anyway he could eventually change a head gasket in 45 minutes - from getting the ticket and the keys to dropping them back off at the service window.

He never said what convinced him to tell Chrysler the details - but I have to suspect that it was a hefty financial inventive. Engineering was horrified and they forbid him to do it that way - or telling anyone else how to do it his way - it Had to be done by-the-book. The factory started checking on vehicle intake time/date and the customer return time/date to make sure.

So after that he would do a half dozen or more in a day and then the service manager would only call one customer per day to pick up their cars. <g>

Ahh, excuse me . . . but some of us are still waiting for the broken rib story!

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Well; it’s a long story and it makes me feel pretty stupid. I’ll see if I can just tell the cliff-notes version. I used to box when I was a kid. I was very fast and when sparring I used to use a cocky double-jab. Which nobody ever sees coming and it scores double points. A Spanish kid a few years younger than me always got pissed off when we would spar and that made him miss more so I could always outpoint him. I have always called him Mexican but I think now that he was actually Puerto Rican. Good boxer, solid puncher, just a bit slower, and just could not maintain - as soon as things didn’t go his way he would get mad and start to make mistakes. Which then pissed him off even more of course.

But he was smart, and he watched me, and he watched me, and he eventually he realized the flaw - to throw that double jab I had to hold my elbow up longer. So the next time I was a little cocky and tweaking him with that jab he timed it Absolutely Perfect; he pivoted; ‘rolled’ to his right to sidestep, and came up off his right foot with a right hook that hit me like a sledge hammer. It sounded like a baseball bat breaking. It was pure artistry - like a damned ballet move. He swore he had never practiced it but it was so unlike his standard form that I was always sure that he had.

Those ribs were never right again and I later broke All the ribs on that side crashing a KZ-1000. As well as a leg and collarbone. <g>

A friend of mine from way back then now runs an illegal boxing gym in Philadelphia. I stop in sometimes to BS and watch the kids spar. He LOVES that story of the Spanish kid breaking my ribs. So of course the last time I came in - he tells the story. A kid there then says: "He did What? I don’t know what you mean." So I explain a few more times and finally I said: "Stand over here. Put your left hand up to jab. See where your elbow is? How many times has Tony said to keep you elbows down? A million? And this is why." So I pivot right and swing the hook up under his elbow and just Touch his ribs. In the middle of showing him the flaw in the double jab he says: "Oh! I got it you mean like this.” And he hooks me hard right were my so-many-times-broken ribs still stick out. Of course I am nothing like in fighting shape so it doesn’t take much to crunch my ribs. Again. I still feel like an idiot.

Of course then I am half crippled for rolling around in and under this friggin truck. Can’t sleep, can’t roll over, can’t cough or sneeze - it all just pissed me the hell off. Hell; it still does.

PHM
---------

Ahh, excuse me . . . but some of us are still waiting for the broken rib story!

[BNME8EZ]

Aw, don't feel bad, kinda have to admire you for taking time out of your schedule to help some kids out. The only time that's a stupid thing is if you are showing them the wrong thing to do.

Thanks for another entertaining/interesting story.

[timebuilder]

When I was in the service bays...I always considered the turbo 4 (2.3L) Chrysler to be a junk motor. When I had one come in I would counsel the owner about the tendency of heads to warp and crack. There is no way that engine can stand up to that kind of abuse for long term service. Even in aviation, a turbo normalized engine had a TBO of about 400 hours less than a normally aspirated engine. Believe me, there is a horsepower piper that must always be paid.

The ones that I did do got the head sent out for truing and cleaning. By the time they got to me, it was probably head gasket No 2 or 3.

[timebuilder]

It will make it run like shit sometimes, depends on what is going on, but from what i see you arent running at all. If it doesn't see the map sensor it will fill in default values so should start. But if you have a lot of little things out of wack it could end up in a no run situation. I assume you have spark and fuel(again, haven't read the whole thread yet).

We are waiting on Billy and his Snappy scanner.

[itsiceman]

Another Dandy Diddy PHM.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Compression Test Results

1 = 145
3 = 135
5 = 140
2 = 155
4 = 170
5 = 110

The #5 is low - but nothing that would keep the truck from starting and running. Nonetheless I thought to add some oil and check it 'wet' to see if it's rings or valves.

Two tablespoons of 0W20 added and first try the engine locked up mid-rotation. I assumed low battery and hooked up some jumper cables to the Tacoma. Next try there was a discharge of pressure sound and then compression # on 5 is now (essentially) zero.

So I am thinking that a hydraulic cylinder blew the side out of the head gasket.

Any alternate opinions?

PHM
-------

I would like a confirmation that there is compression in number one cylinder, and that everything still lines up when you get that characteristic "puff" as it reaches TDC.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Sorry; I missed a chapter.

Billy came and eventually announced that the engine wouldn't turn fast enough to read injectors, crank sensor, or cam sensor. It did the usual slight-puff-out-the-intake (which my spider sense says is a FU engine computer) so he wanted to know the compression.

As previously noted I did the compression test and in the process apparently effed the head gasket.

PHM
--------

We are waiting on Billy and his Snappy scanner.

[Snapperhead]

Buddy of mine did this exact same thing , hydraulic locked it , got it running and it had a weird vibration

Ended up taking it apart and found a bent connecting rod

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I gotta tell you; I have come to consider everything that Chrysler makes as junk. They are OK as a 3-4 year lease but anything more and they just fall apart. When I had them I always bought the full-boat warranty and Billy took care of everything for me. But eventually I realized that a good warranty was not what I really needed - what I really needed was a vehicle that didn't require a good warranty. I had some 225 slant-six motors that were bulletproof and some 318's that just would not die. But anything since then has been wildly underwhelming.

PHM
-------

When I was in the service bays...I always considered the turbo 4 (2.3L) Chrysler to be a junk motor. When I had one come in I would counsel the owner about the tendency of heads to warp and crack. There is no way that engine can stand up to that kind of abuse for long term service. Even in aviation, a turbo normalized engine had a TBO of about 400 hours less than a normally aspirated engine. Believe me, there is a horsepower piper that must always be paid.

The ones that I did do got the head sent out for truing and cleaning. By the time they got to me, it was probably head gasket No 2 or 3.

[timebuilder]

Compression Test Results

1 = 145
3 = 135
5 = 140
2 = 155
4 = 170
5 = 110

The #5 is low - but nothing that would keep the truck from starting and running. Nonetheless I thought to add some oil and check it 'wet' to see if it's rings or valves.

Two tablespoons of 0W20 added and first try the engine locked up mid-rotation. I assumed low battery and hooked up some jumper cables to the Tacoma. Next try there was a discharge of pressure sound and then compression # on 5 is now (essentially) zero.

So I am thinking that a hydraulic cylinder blew the side out of the head gasket.

Any alternate opinions?

PHM
-------

Yes.

I think it is a valve train issue. Easy enough to confirm by pulling the covers and comparing stroke for each valve using a dial indicator or even a caliper.

Unless you have a LOT of combustion chamber deposits, a tablespoon of oil should not hydro lock that engine.

So what is it?

It could be a dropped valve. Broken spring or missing retainer clip.

I don't want to dispute another mechanic's idea, but I have never had an issue with crank rotation speed being insufficient to trigger a spark. Could it happen? Maybe, but boy...that slowness would tell most techs to hook up a battery charger and come back in half an hour.

Many GM motors use a permanent magnet sensor that triggers the computer and ignition module, but even a slow crank will produce a pulse on the scope. The "00" series motors (like the 3800) use hall effect sensors and a toothed ring at the harmonic balancer, and you can turn those with a ratchet and still get a pulse. An ugly pulse, but a pulse.

If he could see RPM on the scan tool, you have pulses.

I'd be looking at the valve movements.

HTH.

It's a journey.

[mcr]

Sister in law had a Turbo New Yorker.Drove the NYS Thruway everyday with the radio cranked in the passing lane for 40 miles. Got to the toll booth and it was clattering and banging. Got it towed to me and a cam seal had blown out. I pulled the head and there wasn't anything in cylinder 4. Half of the no. 1 piston was there. The rod that was in no. 4 was wrapped around rod 1

[timebuilder]

I am still hoping for some level of closure for this one....