ReplyWhat’s the cost of the well?
I would go air to air. Most contractors don’t set up GEO’s proper anyway
Regular Guest
Hello All,
We bought a 3,200SF spec home in Lewes, Delaware that has a builder grade 3.5 ton Goodman Furnace / AC Unit (no heat pump) using propane as primary heat.
Originally considered upgrading to a heat pump, but now I'm leaning to scrap the entire new system and install a closed loop Water Furnace 4 ton - 2 phase geothermal system with electric emergency backup.
Federal (30%) and local ($3k) credits are attractive. Initial cost will be high, but I suspect the payback would be about 10 years.
Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated to help with this decision.
Thank you!
Professional Member*
What’s the cost of the well?
I would go air to air. Most contractors don’t set up GEO’s proper anyway
Regular Guest
The cost for four vertical wells is $7,200, which I thought was reasonable. That includes recycle pump, indoor termination and power to the pump.
Professional Member*
I don’t see a 10 year pay back.
In fact I don’t see any pay back.
Regular Guest
Thank you for your reply.
Using propane exclusively for heat is going to be expensive, so I feel I need to do something, either air to air or geothermal.
Regular Guest
Thank you for your reply.
Using propane exclusively for heat is going to be expensive, so I feel I need to do something, either air to air or geothermal.
Professional Member*
Air to air with LP As back up
Professional Member*
How much is propane in DE? Here in PA it is not that much more per therm than a high efficiency air to air heat pump if you time your purchase (not while they're drying corn or mid winter), assuming a 95%+ furnace.
That said, I agree with the above, air to air w/ LP and dual fuel tstat. If you were my customer, I'd give you the option of installing a Bosch outdoor unit as well as a matched Goodman. You wouldn't have to change anything inside with either and the cost would be way, way less than just the wells.
When the average ambient during heating season isn't really all that much colder than ground water temp, how much is geothermal saving you?
Professional Member*
The Bosch option would require a TXV if the existing Goodman evap is piston metered. I only use Goodman once in a blue moon but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a piston.
God Speed, Jim. We'll miss you - 2-26-23
When the outdoor average temp is 30 and the ground water temp is 50. A geo is a heck of a lot cheaper than an air to air heat pump.Originally Posted by Rovert
OP.
Is a 4 ton geo large enough to heat the house by itself when the outdoor temp is at design temp. If not, having to use electric six heat to supplement will use up the geo savings.
It’s doubtful your duct system is large enough to handle a 5 or 6 ton 2 stage geo.
PS: Moved this thread to AOP forum.
Professional Member*
What is the Total Heat Loss? ___
~ 40,000 BTU/HR at 20'F
WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY KNOW about the anticipated Operating Costs?
__________ …… _________
IS the local TEMPERATURE BIN DATA KNOWN?
What is the AVERAGE Heat Pump C.O.P. based on local temperatures?
What is the Geothermal Heat Pump C.O.P. ?
___________ C.O.P. : Coefficient Of Performance
__ ASHRAE FUNDAMENTALS __
Lat:38.689'N Long:75.359'W
Heating Degree Days = 4,200
Cooling Degree Days = 1,300
LP Gas $ _. _ _ / GALLON
Electricity : $ 0. _ _ _ / KW-HR
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
Professional Member*
___ LP GAS: $2,728 at $ 2.30 / Gallon
HEAT PUMP: $1,283 AIR-TO-AIR At $0.14 / KW-HR / C.O.P. Average 3.3
HEAT PUMP: $ 941 _ GEOTHERMAL ____________ C.O.P. 4.4
… BIG BALL PARK range …. +/- 35 %
Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities
Professional Member*
If you go Geo add an extra loop, do 5 holes not 4. More loop, more heat transfer, warmer loop temps, also if you have 1 loop that doesn't have good contact you are not short. It is cheaper to put the loop in at the beginning than coming in later to add one.
Professional Member*
“ We bought a 3,200SF spec home in Lewes, Delaware that has a builder grade 3.5 ton Goodman Furnace / AC Unit (no heat pump) using propane as primary heat.”
So..what SEER is your current A/C and efficiency of the existing furnace?
Convert to a higher SEER/EER/HSPF Heat Pump, and chances you can also get rebates. Install a ( typically 95%> ) furnace also may give you rebates.
One source for rebates: https://www.dsireusa.org/
At least one brands of HP and Furnaces ( depending on tier level ) give whole new replacement OD unit or whole furnace replacement instead of a compressor or if Heat Exchanger fails on furnace to the original owner once registered. Doubt you will get that with a GEO.
Extended labor warranties backed by the manufacturers ( only two that I’m aware of the rest use 3rd party ) or 3rd party of up to 12 years are available ( typically 10 years for most brands ) are also available at extra cost. Does the GEO of choose offer them, if so who backs them? Is that important to you?
Last edited by Bazooka Joe; 10-17-2019 at 12:42 PM.
Professional Member*
“ I suspect the payback would be about 10 years“ going with the GEO
That’s probably in a perfect world, without any down time, for cheap/expensive repairs ( once labor warranty period expires ) or nuisance tweaking of the system. Wouldn’t you deduct the savings from that perfect 10 year payback period when you have to pay for service calls?
Professional Member*
My point exactly!
Regular Guest
Great point, thx.
Regular Guest
Current AC is 14 seer. Thanks.
