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  1. #1
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    Carrier 38MBRQ48A‐‐3 vs Daikin DZ20VC0481

    Hi,

    I hope this is the right forum for this question.

    I have quotes for a new HVAC installation from two different companies:

    Option 1: Daikin
    Heat pump: DZ20VC0481
    Air handler: MBVC2000AA-1A

    12 years parts and labour


    Option 2: Carrier
    Heat pump: 38MBRQ48A‐‐3
    Air handler: FV4CNF005L00

    10 years parts, 7 years labour

    Both options come with 20KW heating elements.

    Prices are similar, with the Carrier option being slightly more expensive. I have the following concerns:

    1. Daikin requires owners to provide proof that annual maintenance was performed in order to honor their warranty. Carrier does not.
    2. I tried contracting Daikin directly on their website. They also refuse to talk to customers directly (I must go through my dealer). In general my feeling is that Carrier's technical support will be better.
    3. Both https://www.consumerreports.org/prod...iability-only/ and https://www.pickhvac.com/heat-pump/ claim that Carrier is slightly more reliable than Daikin.
    4. I looked up the Carrier heat pump and it seems to be a commercial unit for ductless systems, but the vendor claims (both in person and on their website) that it is a whole-house heat pump: https://www.klimfax.com/en/inverto-c...ral-heat-pump/
    5. The Carrier guy claims that I can connect a non-communicating thermostat (ecobee) to this variable-speed system using a zoning panel (Honeywell model HZ432). This seems to contradict what I've read online, that such variable-speed systems require the use of a communicating thermostat (by Carrier) and failing to do so will decrease the efficiency of the system. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?
    6. The Daikin unit has a AHRI number with independently-verified efficiency ratings. The Carrier unit does not.
    7. Google reviews: The Daikin installer has 4.4 stars with 20+ reviews. The Carrier installer has 3.3 stars with 20+ reviews. I've used the Carrier installer for a repair of my old unit in the past and I can confirm that they don't deserve a high rating.

    I plan to deal with a 3rd company for repairs, once I am out of the warranty period, because I've had excellent an experience with them in the past.

    What is your gut feeling about the above options? Which should I go for and why?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by cowwoc; 10-10-2019 at 12:46 AM. Reason: Mentioned the use of Ecobee thermostats with variable-speed compressor

  2. #2
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    ___ NATURAL GAS FURNACE is Much better.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  3. #3
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    Review sites are worthless...………….The installing contractor makes or breaks a job

  4. #4
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by pecmsg View Post
    Review sites are worthless...………….The installing contractor makes or breaks a job
    Fair enough, but what is your recommendation in this case (ignoring the point about review sites)? Is it a flip of a coin or is one option better than the other?

    Thanks,
    Gili

  5. #5
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    “ I plan to deal with a 3rd company for repairs, once I am out of the warranty period, because I've had excellent an experience with them in the past.”

    Why don’t you get a bid from this company also, as you seem to feel comfortable with them?

    Don’t believe you will get any type of rebates if system does not have a AHRI match, which the Daiken does.

    Who’s backing those Labour warranties the Contractor or the manufacturers? If it’s the Contractor, and they go out of business you will not have any Labour warranty. Whereas the manufacturers backing them, you just need to find a Contractor that participates in those extended warranties or abides by the rules set by the manufacturer.

    At face value it looks like the manufacturers are backing those Labour warranties.

    I see the Daiken Contractor bumped up the OD and ID selection along with going with a bigger heater element, ( 15KW to a 20KW ) you sure your existing ductwork can handle the larger system than your original 3.5 ton system.

    What’s the justification for the increase? Why change quotes from a 3 ton to a 4 ton, they don’t seem confident of what they are doing. What did the load calculation say you need?

    Guessing the Carrier Contractor did the same?
    Last edited by Bazooka Joey; 10-10-2019 at 10:31 AM.

  6. #6
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    “ I plan to deal with a 3rd company for repairs, once I am out of the warranty period, because I've had excellent an experience with them in the past.”

    Why don’t you get a bid from this company also, as you seem to feel comfortable with them?
    They only have one guy who handles new installs and (1) he never answers the phone, emails (2) the one time I met with him he didn't seem like he knew what he was talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    Don’t believe you will get any type of rebates if system does not have a AHRI match, which the Daiken does.
    I was told that the government doesn't actually check, but obviously I'd rather not take the guy's word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    Who’s backing those Labour warranties the Contractor or the manufacturers? If it’s the Contractor, and they go out of business you will not have any Labour warranty. Whereas the manufacturers backing them, you just need to find a Contractor that participates in those extended warranties or abides by the rules set by the manufacturer.

    At face value it looks like the manufacturers are backing those Labour warranties.

    I see the Daiken Contractor bumped up the OD and ID selection along with going with a bigger heater element, ( 15KW to a 20KW ) you sure your existing ductwork can handle the larger system than your original 3.5 ton system.
    We are replacing the duct-work so this is not an issue. The old ducts had design problems so we are forced to replace them regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    What’s the justification for the increase? Why change quotes from a 3 ton to a 4 ton, they don’t seem confident of what they are doing. What did the load calculation say you need?

    Guessing the Carrier Contractor did the same?
    So, the original estimates came from one guy who said that you could get away with a smaller system because heat rises and cold falls and therefore one of the two zones only needed to run on half the power as the other one (the zones are stacked vertically on top of one another). Fast forward a year. That guy merged with another HVAC vendor. The new vendor took the first guy's estimates at face value. I diplomatically asked the new guy whether 3 tons makes sense given that my house is 1962 construction with leaky rooms. Once the new guy calculated revised estimates based on a 1962 home he said we needed to upgrade to 4 tons. Their software says I need a 3 ton system for a new home, or a 5 ton system for a 1962 home. He decided to go for 4 tons because past renovations added insulation in the walls and I plan to add more insulation now.

    The Carrier contractor was pushing for a 4 ton system from day 1. I'm glad he got that part right, but he repeatedly pushes for poor duct design until I steer him in the right direction. For example, he leans towards placing returns close to the supply simply because it's easier for him rather than what would result in a better system (i.e. sticking a return on the opposite side of the room than a supply).

    As you can see, both the contractors are a bit screwed up but honestly they're the best ones I've run across in my area... and I've interviewed 7 different companies.

  7. #7
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    “ I was told that the government doesn't actually check, but obviously I'd rather not take the guy's word for it.”

    I believe you that they don’t physically check the property if that’s what your referring to as my state says they have the option to do that in fine print on their paperwork that’s summited once filled out but guessing unless they have a lot of free time on their hands they may do that ( which I doubt they are that free )

    BUT....they do require a AHRI number to be listed on the paperwork submitted. They ( in my state anyway ) requires a invoice from the Contractor where they purchased the equipment ( with the distributors letter head ) showing exactly the model and serial numbers of each piece of equipment ( minus the prices ) on the invoice, so they can check to make sure it matches the AHRI number that the Contractor submits. Also the Contractor has to submit one of their invoices showing their company name, with the customers name and address ..AND.. add their current Contractors license number on the paperwork.

    I’m guessing you may have a similar system? At least my state makes Contractors jump through hoops in order for the customers to get rebates. If customers only knew how much paperwork is required. Generally speaking Contractors bend over backwards to get rebates for their customers. Everything needs to be precise and exact.

  8. #8
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joey View Post
    “ I was told that the government doesn't actually check, but obviously I'd rather not take the guy's word for it.”

    I believe you that they don’t physically check the property, as my state says they have the option to do that, but guessing unless they have a lot of free time on their hands they may do that ( which I doubt they are that free )

    BUT....they do require a AHRI number to be listed on the paperwork submitted. They ( in my area, of the state ) requires a invoice from the Contractor where they purchased the equipment ( with the distributors letter head ) showing exactly the model and serial numbers of each piece of equipment ( minus the prices ) on the invoice, so they can check to make sure it matches the AHRI number that the Contractor submits. Also the Contractor has to one of their invoice showing their company name, with the customers name and address ..AND.. add their Contractors license number on the paperwork.

    I’m guessing you may have a similar system? At least my state makes Contractors jump through hoops in order for the customers to get rebates. If customers only knew how much paperwork is required. Contractors bend over backwards to get rebates for their customers generally speaking.
    We have the same system. We have to provide the model numbers, copy of the contract and so on. So I honestly don't now what he is thinking. Maybe he plans to give them a bogus AHRI number (that does not correspond to the model he wants to install) and count on them not checking the physical unit. Still, this is far from ideal.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowwoc View Post
    Fair enough, but what is your recommendation in this case (ignoring the point about review sites)? Is it a flip of a coin or is one option better than the other?

    Thanks,
    Gili
    My point is a bad install can take the best equipment on the market and kill it quickly.

    They all use the same compressors, evaporators, condensers with very little differences. Uncle Sam has hand cuffed the manufactures with unrealistic #s. A good installing contractor can make it last a long time.

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