Is this request reasonable?

[Glen V]

Hi, this is my first post. I am the homeowner, my 5 ton, three-year-old system runs intermittently and leaks r410a. The distributor asked my technician to perform a high-pressure leak test with nitrogen to determine what was leaking. My tech pumped down the system, isolated the condenser from the evaporator and pressurized both. The evaporator lost 5 lbs in 1.5 minutes and the condenser lost 5 lbs in 37 minutes. He reported the results to the distributor.

I asked the distributor for warranty replacement. Now the distributor wants “to have the locations of the leaks pinpointed, as in the fin pack of the indoor or outdoor coil, with pictures of the bubbles if the tech is using soap bubbles. Preferably 2 pictures of each, 1 showing a close up of the leak then 1 at a short distance away from the to show relationship of the leak to its location in the unit.”

Well, the tech wasn’t asked for pictures of bubbles prior to the test. I suggested the distributor send out his own tech to do whatever additional testing he wanted. The distributor reported that he does not have a technician.

Is this request reasonable? It seems like the distributor is giving me the run around.

[Bazooka Joe]

Lost 5 lbs of refrigerant or dropped 5 psi? If your Tech. Identified the leak(s) even with a electronic, didn’t the Tech. show you exactly where the leak(s) where located?

I personally don’t think the distributor is being unreasonable asking for pictures proving a leak with bubbles, as they have to up channel those coils. What if the manufacturers finds no leaks in the coils, that means the distributor is out on warranty claims, process time, shipping cost etc. I’m guessing many returned coils previously where non leakers? and they instituted this policy to prove 100% leakage? At least that’s my take on it....

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Those are big leak rates. And so the leaks should be easy to find - and to pinpoint. Which is the Exact Point of a leak-test.

Your mechanic did not "leak check" in any meaningful way.

You already Knew that you Had A Leak - so what was the point of his work?

To Find The Leaks, right? Which is the thing which he apparently did not do.

Your distributor is correct.

Your mechanic is the problem.

PHM
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Hi, this is my first post. I am the homeowner, my 5 ton, three-year-old system runs intermittently and leaks r410a. The distributor asked my technician to perform a high-pressure leak test with nitrogen to determine what was leaking. My tech pumped down the system, isolated the condenser from the evaporator and pressurized both. The evaporator lost 5 lbs in 1.5 minutes and the condenser lost 5 lbs in 37 minutes. He reported the results to the distributor.

I asked the distributor for warranty replacement. Now the distributor wants “to have the locations of the leaks pinpointed, as in the fin pack of the indoor or outdoor coil, with pictures of the bubbles if the tech is using soap bubbles. Preferably 2 pictures of each, 1 showing a close up of the leak then 1 at a short distance away from the to show relationship of the leak to its location in the unit.”

Well, the tech wasn’t asked for pictures of bubbles prior to the test. I suggested the distributor send out his own tech to do whatever additional testing he wanted. The distributor reported that he does not have a technician.

Is this request reasonable? It seems like the distributor is giving me the run around.

[Glen V]

Sorry I wasn't clear. The pressure in the evaporator dropped 5 psi, 396 to 391 in 1.5 minutes. That just says the nitrogen escaped from the coil, not exactly where the leak was. The installed coil is mostly inaccessible in the attic. Unless the leak happened to be on the accessible side you would never see it. Should I have the coil removed so it can be completely examined?

[shellkamp]

Lost 5 lbs of refrigerant or dropped 5 psi? If your Tech. Identified the leak(s) even with a electronic, didn’t the Tech. show you exactly where the leak(s) where located?

I personally don’t think the distributor is being unreasonable asking for pictures proving a leak with bubbles, as they have to up channel those coils. What if the manufacturers finds no leaks in the coils, that means the distributor is out on warranty claims, process time, shipping cost etc. I’m guessing many returned coils previously where non leakers? and they instituted this policy to prove 100% leakage? At least that’s my take on it....

The distributor and/or manufacturer can simply choose not to issue the credit to the contractor.

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[Glen V]

Thanks for helping me see who to lean on. I'm thinking maybe I need a new mechanic.

[Glen V]

I like the diversity of thought. It lets me consider different options for solving the problem. Ultimately I just want an HVAC that works.

[garyed]

Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but the customer should not dealing with the distributor. You should be dealing with the contractor only, unless the contractor tells you the distributor will not honor the warranty then it would be time to go to the manufacturer. If the system was purchased & installed through a licensed contractor there should be no problem getting any warranty. The distributor should not be telling the contractor how to find a leak, so something does not sound right to begin with. I could be wrong but to me the problem sounds more like the contractor does not have a good relationship with the distributor than it is with the distributor.

[Glen V]

Grayed,
I think maybe the contractor is out of his depth. My two 18 SEER systems were the first and last of that type he installed. They have been unreliable from the beginning. I would not buy another and I pretty sure the contractor would not want to sell one. We got pretty good support in the beginning. I've lost track but I estimate they have replaced about $6,000 of parts under warranty already. I'm really tired of being without A/C and I'm sure the distributor is tired of shelling out parts. But my units are only 3 years old and warrantied for 10. Seven more lean years for me. The contractor would like to get out of the middle. I'm trying to keep him there but I have to push for resolution even after he gives up. It is helpful to me to get professional opinions from your forum so I know who to hold accountable.
Thanks,
Glen

[comfortdoc]

If you are in contact with the distributor ask for a recommendation for a new contractor. Also ask for a labor concession if there is a leak in the manufacturer’s equipment.

From what you describe it would be worth the money to get a reputable contractor that understands your equipment to go through everything and see what’s really going on.

[Mr Bill]

I think maybe the contractor is out of his depth. My two 18 SEER systems were the first and last of that type he installed. They have been unreliable from the beginning. I would not buy another and I pretty sure the contractor would not want to sell one. We got pretty good support in the beginning. I've lost track but I estimate they have replaced about $6,000 of parts under warranty already. I'm really tired of being without A/C and I'm sure the distributor is tired of shelling out parts. But my units are only 3 years old and warrantied for 10. Seven more lean years for me. The contractor would like to get out of the middle. I'm trying to keep him there but I have to push for resolution even after he gives up. It is helpful to me to get professional opinions from your forum so I know who to hold accountable.
Thanks,
Glen

If this is the case, which I have no reason to doubt what you're saying, my next call would be to mfg. Rep. You said "I'm sure the distributor is tired of shelling out parts." that's a personal problem, sometimes it just goes with the territory. I have NEVER been asked to do what that distributor has asked, something fishy here.

[BNME8EZ]

Ok, just to make sure I got his right.

2 systems, 3 yrs old, 1 is leaking in 2 locations {in and out}, roughly $6k worth of part put in to both systems over the 3 years.

Not counting the current issue which system has had the most work done on it/ part replaced?

If the answer is this system, document all the issues including this one, when they happened, what the repair was, what the end result was, and any out of pocket costs to you. Then approach the distributor and or dealer about a system buy back/trade in. If they go for it it may eliminate a headache for both of you. Also don't expect a full refund from the distributor and they will expect you to take another unit they sell. The worst they can say is no. This one may be better if the dealer approaches them but if he won't the ball is in your court. Generally there has to be major issues that are manufacturer related not just a capacitor went bad for example.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

What were the parts replaced?

The $6000. worth - can you list those for us?

That will make it easier for us to more accurately grasp the scope of the issue.

PHM
--------

Grayed,
I think maybe the contractor is out of his depth. My two 18 SEER systems were the first and last of that type he installed. They have been unreliable from the beginning. I would not buy another and I pretty sure the contractor would not want to sell one. We got pretty good support in the beginning. I've lost track but I estimate they have replaced about $6,000 of parts under warranty already. I'm really tired of being without A/C and I'm sure the distributor is tired of shelling out parts. But my units are only 3 years old and warrantied for 10. Seven more lean years for me. The contractor would like to get out of the middle. I'm trying to keep him there but I have to push for resolution even after he gives up. It is helpful to me to get professional opinions from your forum so I know who to hold accountable.
Thanks,
Glen

[Mr Bill]

The distributor and/or manufacturer can simply choose not to issue the credit to the contractor.

Heck, we’ve never received any credit from the distributor or manufacturer for anything we’ve ever done under warranty, it’s always been an out of pocket labor expense for us. But I’m guessing you’re talking about they can refuse to honor the part warranty? I don’t know who some of these distributors are, but I’ve never had any issues with any warranties at my supply house. Sounds like some of these supply houses are acting like home warranty companies rather than supply houses.



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[Glen V]

More good input. I'm able to write what I hope are coherent emails to both the contractor (and technician, same person) and the distributor. I've tried calling the manufacturer before and they insisted I work through the distributor. With my new leverage based on new knowledge gained here, I'll try to get a decision out of the distributor and will ask them for a new contractor if they won't provide a solution via the existing contractor. At least for the time being my A/C is working having just been re-filled. The labor concession and review by a reputable contractor are also on my to do list. Too bad I didn't look for this site before I bought my new systems. Thanks so much to everyone for their help.

[BNME8EZ]

Heck, we’ve never received any credit from the distributor or manufacturer for anything we’ve ever done under warranty, it’s always been an out of pocket labor expense for us. But I’m guessing you’re talking about they can refuse to honor the part warranty? I don’t know who some of these distributors are, but I’ve never had any issues with any warranties at my supply house. Sounds like some of these supply houses are acting like home warranty companies rather than supply houses.

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I have gotten labor concessions before on warranty pasts replacements, usually if it happened in the first year. I had a unit a couple years ago ran for 2 weeks and the HPC cracked where it attached to the discharge line. Needless to say it lost all the freeze juice. I got paid for the repair. Or the other is on recall issues, they have a labor amount they will give.

[Glen V]

I see I way behind in reading posts. I'll try to catch up.
South System, 3 years old, 18 SEER 5 ton, Pinnacle, badged to Grandaire.
Replaced inside fan
Replaced Drive board, immediately fried
Replaced Drive board, Main board, Bridge, Works intermittently.
Consistent 6 minute shutdown time,
run time varies from a few minutes to over an hour.
Has had about 8 lbs of r410a added over the past two months.
Still has leaks in both condenser and evaporator.
I was/am hoping for a buy back/trade in for the south unit.

North System, 3 years old, 18 SEER 5 ton, Pinnacle, badged to Grandaire.
Replaced evaporator
Replaced inside fan
Replaced Drive board
Has had 5 lbs of r410a two days ago. Went from a 2KW weakling to a 6KW monster. No leak diagnosis done yet.

According to the manufacturer (now Bosch), the distributor picked up the warranty on my units themselves. I don't know if this was part of the original plan or related to the disappearance of Pinnacle.

[Mr Bill]

I have gotten labor concessions before on warranty parts replacements, usually if it happened in the first year. .

We've had in warranty failures, less than 3 months old, and were told by our distributor if it's over 6 weeks since the install we can't help. I even went to my salesman to help with some sort of allowance, even a jug of refrigerant, anything, he tried but nothing. Someone needs to offer a low cost insurance, for all of us contractors that don't get one dime compensation for our labor and refrigerant on in warranty failures, within the one year labor warranty. We had a job a few years ago, the new condenser we set, the compressor was doa, the distributor "actually the store manager at that time" wanted to give me a new compressor, I about blew a gasket. I called the the mfr. rep. he said give him a new condenser, I had a new condenser delivered to the job in an hour. I understand store managers, and distributors or in the middle, but what's sad is, the mfg. and the distributors play the "pass the buck" game. The really sad part is, while all these games are being played, the customer is suffering after spending thousands on new equipment. I don't know what's up, but back in the day, I never had to haggle with the supply house on an in warranty failure. I remember back in 92-93 when Ruud had massive furnace board failures, they compensated us for labor to replace the boards, now that we all live in a "stockholder first" world, some mfg. just don't care anymore, you're own your own.

[BNME8EZ]

We've had in warranty failures, less than 3 months old, and were told by our distributor if it's over 6 weeks since the install we can't help. I even went to my salesman to help with some sort of allowance, even a jug of refrigerant, anything, he tried but nothing. Someone needs to offer a low cost insurance, for all of us contractors that don't get one dime compensation for our labor and refrigerant on in warranty failures, within the one year labor warranty. We had a job a few years ago, the new condenser we set, the compressor was doa, the distributor "actually the store manager at that time" wanted to give me a new compressor, I about blew a gasket. I called the the mfr. rep. he said give him a new condenser, I had a new condenser delivered to the job in an hour. I understand store managers, and distributors or in the middle, but what's sad is, the mfg. and the distributors play the "pass the buck" game. The really sad part is, while all these games are being played, the customer is suffering after spending thousands on new equipment. I don't know what's up, but back in the day, I never had to haggle with the supply house on an in warranty failure. I remember back in 92-93 when Ruud had massive furnace board failures, they compensated us for labor to replace the boards, now that we all live in a "stockholder first" world, some mfg. just don't care anymore, you're own your own.

This is why it pays to find a good distributor and treat them well and they will treat you well in return. I have 3 that I use but over 20 to choose from. I have a goto for duct products, a goto for parts, and a goto for equipment and replacement parts. They know I don't price shop them for a couple bucks and in return if I need a "favor" they lend a hand. I have even gotten warranty parts for units a month or so past just because it was the thing to do for the customer.

[joemach]

I see I way behind in reading posts. I'll try to catch up.
South System, 3 years old, 18 SEER 5 ton, Pinnacle, badged to Grandaire.
Replaced inside fan
Replaced Drive board, immediately fried
Replaced Drive board, Main board, Bridge, Works intermittently.
Consistent 6 minute shutdown time,
run time varies from a few minutes to over an hour.
Has had about 8 lbs of r410a added over the past two months.
Still has leaks in both condenser and evaporator.
I was/am hoping for a buy back/trade in for the south unit.

North System, 3 years old, 18 SEER 5 ton, Pinnacle, badged to Grandaire.
Replaced evaporator
Replaced inside fan
Replaced Drive board
Has had 5 lbs of r410a two days ago. Went from a 2KW weakling to a 6KW monster. No leak diagnosis done yet.

According to the manufacturer (now Bosch), the distributor picked up the warranty on my units themselves. I don't know if this was part of the original plan or related to the disappearance of Pinnacle.

So you have 10 tons of air conditioning. How big is your house?