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  1. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    It's not about rights.
    An ethical decision would be one that wasn't based on gain, but on principal.
    So if an ethical person was against SS for whatever reason they would pass.
    I don't know many.
    So your contention is that one who is forced to pay into a system he disagrees with should forfeit the funds he paid in, thereby benefiting the system he disagrees with?

    Let's say this "same guy" hates the bank he deals with...disagrees with the very premise of the way the bank does business, but is forced by some legislation to keep his money there until a certain amount of time expires. Do ethics dictate that he not withdraw his money when the time comes? Or should he let the bank he detests keep his money, doing as they wish, even furthering the system he hates?

    Even if it didn't benefit the system he disagrees with, you're line of thought here isn't reasonable.

  2. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    So your contention is that one who is forced to pay into a system he disagrees with should forfeit the funds he paid in, thereby benefiting the system he disagrees with?

    Let's say this "same guy" hates the bank he deals with...disagrees with the very premise of the way the bank does business, but is forced by some legislation to keep his money there until a certain amount of time expires. Do ethics dictate that he not withdraw his money when the time comes? Or should he let the bank he detests keep his money, doing as they wish, even furthering the system he hates?

    Even if it didn't benefit the system he disagrees with, you're line of thought here isn't reasonable.
    Principals often aren't reasonable. Mohammad Ali was denied his Title faced jail on his principals. One was "No Vietnamese ever called me N....R.
    Paying a price is known going in. Many solder's knows they might not survive but go anyway. Something they believe in.
    Choosing not to apply for SS might be a stretch on ethics but could apply for the true believer. Some Libertarians choose not to pay taxes even though they know it has consequences.
    I'd ask them to stay off our highways, don't call for services provided by taxes etc.
    A radio guy, Hartman I think, believes Libertarian's only want to smoke dope and get laid. I'd add to also not pay their taxes and avoid personal liability.
    Another issue.

    Ethics are often personal and different from a collective ethic like some professions have. Ethics can be a real test of a commitment. Like if a guy really wants to kill somebody but believes murder is not right. What side wins?
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Throughout most of the history of the human race...
    Folks have had to be self sufficient... or loose out!
    And there are no guarantees in life... just the way it is.

    So when the govt comes along and says they are gonna fix everything...
    And the history of countries that have tried that idea...
    Is even worse than dismal...

    WHY do folks think it will be different (work)...
    This time???
    Care to explain why something that has been tried before and NEVER worked long term...
    Will work now???

    Documentable and verifiable information only, please...

    The Preamble of our Constitution told of a new way of a nation to function. Something new.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of ...

    Self sufficiency is a myth. We all are connected like an ant colony.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  4. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Principals often aren't reasonable. Mohammad Ali was denied his Title faced jail on his principals. One was "No Vietnamese ever called me N....R.
    Paying a price is known going in. Many solder's knows they might not survive but go anyway. Something they believe in.
    Choosing not to apply for SS might be a stretch on ethics but could apply for the true believer. Some Libertarians choose not to pay taxes even though they know it has consequences.
    I'd ask them to stay off our highways, don't call for services provided by taxes etc.
    A radio guy, Hartman I think, believes Libertarian's only want to smoke dope and get laid. I'd add to also not pay their taxes and avoid personal liability.
    Another issue.

    Ethics are often personal and different from a collective ethic like some professions have. Ethics can be a real test of a commitment. Like if a guy really wants to kill somebody but believes murder is not right. What side wins?
    I think it'd be the rare individual who possessed principles that dictated leaving the funds he contributed to SS in the system by virtue of disagreement with that system. But to each his own, I guess.

  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    The Preamble of our Constitution told of a new way of a nation to function. Something new.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of ...

    Self sufficiency is a myth. We all are connected like an ant colony.
    Taken out of context...

    Folks which are tuff enough to take care of themselves...
    Are what built the USA...
    And the lack of such tuffness is what is destroying the USA!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Taken out of context...

    Folks which are tuff enough to take care of themselves...
    Are what built the USA...
    And the lack of such tuffness is what is destroying the USA!

    I agree with you about what it took and takes to keep this democracy. I see this lack of toughness in how children are raised. Actually in many cases the kids are not raised ( instructed ) but bargained with. Asking Timmy how he would like to proceed with his raising.
    The results are not manageable. Reason of course is Timmy has no clue where he is or where he's going.
    The question of what's destroying America probably began when we stopped acting like a democracy. Picking sides like the Civil War.
    Someone said years ago "It's all about respect" Dwell on that awhile and it proves true.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin lashon View Post
    I think it'd be the rare individual who possessed principles that dictated leaving the funds he contributed to SS in the system by virtue of disagreement with that system. But to each his own, I guess.
    I agree. I just wanted to illustrate the mind of the true believer. Probably most have made some sacrifice, but at lower stakes, over principal.
    Ethics courses are required in some educations. Like lawyers <g>

    I know of a class where the teacher made the test answers available on his desk. The teacher left the room during the test. One person knew of the plan and grabbed the test and distributed the answers. It was to make the teacher look more effective as the students would have higher scores.
    Of the 30 or so students, 2 didn't cheat. Like 15% Knowing about this enlightened me as to how trustworthy people are or would be if the right incentive came about.
    Most would be honest if they thought they could afford it.
    Give me a relay with big enough contacts, and I'll run the world!

    You can be anything you want......As long as you don't suck at it.

    If a person wants to create a machine that will be more likely to fail...Make it complicated.

    USAF 98 Bomb Wing 1960-66 SMW Lu49

  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    I agree. I just wanted to illustrate the mind of the true believer. Probably most have made some sacrifice, but at lower stakes, over principal.
    Ethics courses are required in some educations. Like lawyers <g>

    I know of a class where the teacher made the test answers available on his desk. The teacher left the room during the test. One person knew of the plan and grabbed the test and distributed the answers. It was to make the teacher look more effective as the students would have higher scores.
    Of the 30 or so students, 2 didn't cheat. Like 15% Knowing about this enlightened me as to how trustworthy people are or would be if the right incentive came about.
    Most would be honest if they thought they could afford it.
    I don't agree that ethics or principles are relevant in any way to someone receiving the SS funds owed them by a system they disagree with. In fact, if there were to be a matter of principle involved, it would land on the side of collecting the funds you were mandated to contribute.

  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    I agree with you about what it took and takes to keep this democracy. I see this lack of toughness in how children are raised. Actually in many cases the kids are not raised ( instructed ) but bargained with. Asking Timmy how he would like to proceed with his raising.
    The results are not manageable. Reason of course is Timmy has no clue where he is or where he's going.
    The question of what's destroying America probably began when we stopped acting like a democracy. Picking sides like the Civil War.
    Someone said years ago "It's all about respect" Dwell on that awhile and it proves true.
    Agree with that...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!

  10. #114
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    Vacuum Technology:
    CRUD = Contamination Resulting in Undesirable Deposits.
    CRAPP = Contamination Resulting in Additional Partial Pressure.

    Change your vacuum pump oil now.

    Test. Testing, 1,2,3.

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